Sandman (Wesley Dodds) vs Madame Web

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This is a DynaMic Network podcast.

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Welcome to the dynamic duel podcast a weekly show where we review superhero films and debate the superiority between Marvel and DC By comparing their characters and stat-based battle simulations. I'm marvelous Joe and I'm his twin brother Johnny DC And in this episode we're going to find out who would win in a fight between Sandman the Wesley Dodds version of the character against Madame Webb the Julia carpenter version of the character

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Yeah, there's multiple iterations of these characters with the same names, but these two specific characters are pretty badass. They wear trench coats. They have premonitions. They knock other people unconscious. We thought it was a pretty good match up. And this, of course, is in lead up to our next episode, which is a review of the Dead Boy Detectives on Netflix, which takes place in the Sandman universe. A different Sandman. Right. But Wesley Dodds is like Sandman adjacent. It's... Don't worry about it.

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You'll learn all about it later on. Yeah, I mean, and also the Madame Web movie came out a few months ago. So this is kind of timely. Yeah, I guess I forgot all about that movie. Before we get into that duel where we input the character statistics and run 1000 simulations to find out who would win, we're going to break down the latest comic book movie news that came out this past week, of which there were two items, both DC animation related. We got the official trailer for My Adventures with Superman season two.

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and a teaser for Justice League Crisis on Infinite Earths Part 3. As always, we list our segment times in our episode description, so feel free to check out the show notes if you want to skip ahead to a particular topic. Our artificially intelligent duel simulator, AJ9K, has a quick message for our listeners, so listen up.

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Why hello there. Do you love listening and chatting about Marvel and DC? Then become a part of the dynamic duel community on Patreon, where you can choose from three tiers. The dynamic 2-0 tier lets you listen to this podcast without ads and gives you access to its Discord chat group, where you can chat with Johnny DC and Marvelous Joe. The fantastic four tier gives you that and more with two bonus episodes each month, including bloopers and top 10 shows where Johnny and Joe count down your favorite Marvel and DC subjects.

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The X-Force tier makes you an executive producer of Dynamic duel.

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where every month you help the host choose what to review and who to fight against each other. And finally, the Dynamite Podcast Network tier allows aspiring podcasters to create their own battle-focused show using this Monte Carlo simulator. Johnny and Joe will help you develop your show, provide graphic support and consultation, and get you simulation results to announce on your show. Pitch the twins your show via email at dyna or by reaching out to them on social media. Check it out at patreon.com slash dyna

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your pip pip cheerio.

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And on the Senjou World podcast, host Zachary Hepburn speculates on fights between fan favorite anime and manga characters. This Thursday, we'll find out who would win between Gabimaro the Hollow from Hell's Paradise and Rekka Hanabishi from Flame of Rekka. On the Console Combat podcast, hosts John and Dean find out who would win in fights between popular video game characters. In yesterday's episode, they found out who would win between Knuckles from the Sonic the Hedgehog games and Donkey Kong.

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Visit dynamicpodcasts.com or click the link in our show notes to listen to all the shows in the DynaMic Podcast Network. But with that out of the way, quick to the no prize! A no prize is an award Marvel used to give out to fans. Our version, the Dynamic duel No Prize, is a digital award we post on Instagram for the person that we feel gave the best answer to our question of the week. Last week as a tie-in to the Deadpool and Wolverine trailer, we asked...

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other than Wolverine, what Fox X-Men character do you most hope appears in Deadpool and Wolverine and why? And we got three answers so let's go ahead and run down our two honorable mentions as well as the no prize winner. Our first honorable mention goes to Judson Batty who said, Hi guys Judson Batty here. In the last episode you called me a Brit. I'm actually Australian but whatever. I would say that the Fox X-Men character I want to come over the most is Caliban from Logan because I feel like he could really fit.

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the theme of the movie. He could help them find a character or a place that they need to do because that is pretty much what he does. And I feel like it would really be a way to tie film back into Logan. We do have two important corrections to make from Judson Batty's answer in the last episode. The first correction is that, I don't know what I was spoken.

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Sean Connery is not alive anymore. I said he was still alive, but he actually died in 2020, and apparently I'm still in denial. So, sorry about that. Also, apparently Judson Betty is not from Great Britain, but is in fact Australian. Oh, Guten Tag! Let's go skiing in the Australian Alps! Listen to Mozart's music in Vienna, the capital city of Australia.

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But no, Caliban was in the Logan movie played by Stephen Merchant and he was fantastic in that role. He did unfortunately die, but that doesn't mean we couldn't see a variant of him show up in Deadpool and Wolverine. And like Judson said, probably direct them to a specific goal or location since his whole mutant power is the ability to track and detect the location of other mutants.

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Yeah, I totally forgot about this character in Logan. I would love to see him return to the role. Oh, yeah, for sure. He played the character way better than the guy who played him in X-Men Apocalypse. That was just weird. Already blocked it. Great answer, Judson. Let's go ahead and move on to our next honorable mention, which goes to Corey Wooten. Who said? Hey, guys, Corey Wooten. I'd like to see Alan Rickson as Sabretooth with an aesthetic more like

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with the correct aesthetic more like the original X-Men, but also with the ability to think, speak, and deliver lines.

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Yeah, Sabertooth would be fantastic to see go up against Wolverine and Deadpool. Alan Richson never played the character, but he would make a fantastic Sabertooth. He was played in the original movies by Tyler Maine and then, of course, by Leif Schreiber in the X-Men Origins Wolverine movie. Yeah, my vote is for Tyler Maine to return. I would love to see that. And maybe we will. It would be cool to see Sabertooth, Wolverine and Deadpool in a fight considering, you know, they're all slashy, heely guys. They would just tear each other to bits and like nothing would happen.

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They just fight endlessly. That'd be really cool to see. So great answer, Corey, but the winner of this week's snow prize goes to Travis Herndon, who said, What's up, Dynamic Dudes? Travis here, shout out to my other twins. So my answer would have to be Mystique, particularly Rebecca's version of the character. It would be cool to see that actress come back to reprise her role as Mystique. Also, you could make a little joke that Deadpool or something brings up the fact that she's been running around naked in all three of the X-Men movies she was in.

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only for her to maybe shade shift into her comic book accurate suit and give him the middle finger. So yeah, that's my pick. I love this answer. I think it would be so cool, yeah, to have Rebecca Romaine as Mystique show up in the void at the end of time. And like no one just comments on the fact that she's essentially naked. And Deadpool's like looking around like Wolverine is not saying anything. And Deadpool's like, is seriously no one going to say anything? Lady, put your fun bags away. This is Disney now. It's family friendly.

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And then like she just beats his ass or something like that. I would love that. If this doesn't happen in the movie, I'm actually going to be a little bit disappointed. It will still exist in my headcanon if it's not in the film. Yeah, I always preferred Rebecca Romaine to Jennifer Lawrence for Mystique. I hope we get a return of Rebecca Romaine for this movie. And going off of what Travis said, yeah, it would be cool to then see Mystique shape shift into her more comic book accurate costume with the white dress. Yeah, because we've never seen that on film. That'd be awesome.

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Yeah, and I hope that's what they do for the MCU version of the character. So congrats to Travis Herndon. Fantastic answer. You win this week's No Prize. If you're the listener, want a shot at winning your own No Prize. Stay tuned to later on in this episode when we'll be asking another question of the week. And now that that's done, on to the news.

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Alright, so last week we got our first look at the second season of My Adventures with Superman, an animated series that's premiering on Cartoon Network, but also showing on the Max platform. Of course, we reviewed My Adventures with Superman season one last year. It was a really, really well done modern anime version of the Superman mythos. And the way it ended, it set up season two. So I've been really looking forward to this first trailer.

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and it didn't disappoint. No, it looks like it continues everything that made the first season so well done. And not being, you know, a DC or a Superman guy myself, I really enjoyed the show and it's, yeah, modern take on the character of Superman. The way they adapted all of these characters to kind of fit in with Kryptonian technology and stuff like that, I thought was really fascinating. And they really left that first season on quite the cliffhanger with Brainiac and General Lane and all that stuff. So yeah, this is gonna be exciting.

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Yeah, definitely more of the same, which is great to see the opening shot of the trailer. It looks like Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen are encountering a Kryptonian, although I'm not sure who it is, whether it's General Zod or someone else, maybe. I guess we'll see. It looks like the trio of Clark Kent, Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen are getting up to their wacky hijinks as they have in the past. It was a fun reminder that Jimmy Olsen is now a millionaire. So, you know, he's.

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talking at this conference, that's gonna be interesting this season. But what I thought was really cool was to see the return of Lex Luthor, who we got like a tease of in the first season, but it looks like it's officially him. He was Ivo's assistant or something like that. And it makes sense that with Ivo out, Lex Luthor may be taking over the tech space and competing with Jimmy Olsen. I thought it was cool how we got our first looks at characters like Metallo, Parademons, and of course, Supergirl.

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Oh yeah, Supergirl was a huge surprise. She, of course, is in the poster for the upcoming season. And I was really happy to see that she'll be here. Clark Kent does encounter a baby version of her at the very end of the trailer, although I'm not sure if that's just like a flashback to the past when she was also, you know, rocketed off of Krypton before it was destroyed or not. I guess we'll find out. Another villain we get to see in this trailer is Brainiac.

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And it's gonna be really interesting to see his dynamic with Zod, because it looks like a lot of the Kryptonian tech is powered by Brainiac. I think we also get our first look at John Henry Irons' steel in this trailer too. It's more like a prototype mech suit. I'm not quite sure if it's steel, but that would be cool if we got him in this season too. Yeah, I would love that. I imagine they would kind of take the same route they took with his origin in the New 52, tying him into Metallo. At least I hope they do.

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But it looks like this season kicks off at the end of this month on May 25th on the Cartoon Network. The shows will be then showing up on MAX the following day. We're definitely going to review this upcoming season and I can't wait to do so. I can't wait to see all the cool new villains that they adapt for this show. Yes, definitely one of the more interesting aspects of the show. But speaking of villains, that brings us to our question of the week.

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Who is your favorite Superman villain and why? This is going to be a tough one, there's a lot of great Superman villains out there. Really dig deep on the why portion of your answer. Record your answer at dynamicduel.com by clicking on the red microphone button in the bottom right hand corner of the screen, which will prompt you to leave us a voicemail. Your message could be up to 30 seconds long, and don't forget to leave your name in case we include you on the podcast. We'll pick our favorite answer, and award that person a dynamic duel no prize that we'll post to Instagram. Be sure to answer before...

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May 11th. In other DC animated news, we got the first official teaser trailer for Justice League Chrysalis Infinite Earths Part 3. Of course, we reviewed Part 2 in our last episode. Spoiler alert, it wasn't that great and it really didn't get me too pumped up for Part 3. And I can't say this official teaser did either. It's very much a tease. And primarily it's a tease that Lex Luthor

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in the whole crisis mix although it's unclear as to which version of Lex Luthor this is. The teaser kind of makes it seem like he's a bad guy but if this is Lex Luthor from Earth 3 and maybe he survived that universe's destruction somehow then he could be a huge asset to defeating the Anti-Monitor without anyone realizing it. Of course we get to see the Anti-Monitor in this trailer and he looks terrible. I just gotta say it.

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He looks nothing like he does in the comics. I wish he was more comics accurate because this is a weird look for the character. This is a little bit generic. He's just this figure all in black with red eyes. And that's it exactly. That's it exactly. Lame. I often boast about how good the character design is in the tomorrow verse, but this makes me embarrassed of the tomorrow verse. Just this design.

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It was interesting to see the Batman animated series, Batman and Joker. It seems like we're doing a lot more universe hopping, including the DC animated universe, which incorporates like Superman cartoon, the Batman cartoon, the Justice League cartoon. That's pretty interesting. That was very interesting. I'm wondering how many other different animated universes are going to pop up. Like Teen Titans go? No idea. That would be weird. They've already had their own crisis on their show, so I would be surprised, but

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You know, anything's possible, honestly. I really do hope that this is good. I really do hope that this brings closure to decades of DC's animated media, maybe going all the way back to like Superman's Max Fleischer cartoons. That would be really cool. And I think really give us a good setup for maybe James Gunn's new universe. That would be awesome. Do you mean Creature Commandos, the animated series that's coming out later this year? Yes, exactly. That's scheduled to come out in late 2024.

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as part of the whole Gods and Monsters chapter of James Gunn's DC Universe. I'm not sure if that's still the case though. I have a feeling that might get pushed back to after Superman. Or at least I wouldn't be surprised if it did. There's no release date for this film yet. At the very end of the trailer it just says it's coming soon. I imagine sometime in the fall. And when it does, we'll review it. Fingers crossed it's good.

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Alright, I think that does it for all the news for this episode, so let's go ahead and get into the main event where we find out who'd win in a fight between Sandman, aka Wesley Dodds, and Madame Webb, aka Julia Carpenter.

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Alright, Sandman vs. Madame Webb. This is the Wesley Dodds and Julia Carpenter versions of the characters respectively. They're both kind of pulpy characters in that they're terribly mysterious and they wear trench coats and vaguely similar power sets as well. Yeah, and that their main ability is to incapacitate others, you could say. But they also get premonitions of the future and they both have kind of like cool face gear, like Madame Webb wears these glasses because she's blind and Sandman wears this gas mask.

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which makes him look extra pulpy. Wesley Dodds is a fantastic character. Yeah, he's really cool. I'm a really big fan of the character, especially the way they re-imagined him in Sandman Mystery Theater, which was a vertigo tie-in to the Sandman series. Speaking of that, Jonathan, what's the difference between the Wesley Dodds version of Sandman and the Morpheus version of Sandman? They could not be more different. So one of them is a detective of sorts who uses sleeping gas.

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And the other one is essentially the god of dreams or the embodiment of dreams, you could say. Right. The latter of which had a series on Netflix, but the former of which, the guy with the sleeping gas gun, he has played a part in the adventures of the dream god version of Sandman. Yes, tangentially. He's a character that has appeared in the Sandman comics. And of course, everybody knows Madame Webb. She is world famous now that she's had her own film.

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Now in that movie, the character was Cassandra Webb, who in the comics is an old woman in a chair. She eventually passed her powers down to Julia Carpenter, who was played in the Madden Webb film by Sidney Sweeney. This is all very complicated, but hopefully the characters' backstories that we get into later will help clear things up. But to explain the methodology behind our duels, let's go to our sentient duel simulator, Alfred Jarvis 9000. AJ and IK tell our listeners how you go about determining a winner in our duel matchups.

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The way I determine a winner between the contestants is by running 1000 Monte Carlo simulations using the characters statistics. A Monte Carlo simulation is a probabilistic model used to determine outcomes through random sampling. In this case, I randomize the statistics along a normal distribution as a way to simulate the many variables that can occur during battle. The stat parameters are based on the official Marvel power grid from which the DC characters statistics are extrapolated. Additional stat categories are included such as range,

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damage potential, versatility and perception in order to create a more detailed and accurate simulation. The results of the 1000 simulations provide a percentage of wins for each character. The contestant with the higher percentage is declared the victor as they have a higher probability to win any given battle. In an equitable pairing, neither character should win 100% of the matches. The comic book stories have shown that there's even a way for Batman to defeat Superman.

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So the confidence rate of my method falls in line with the precedents that have been established in the source material. My mathematical simulations are without subjectivity or bias. Feats are not the sole consideration, nor are fan votes tabulated for determination of the winner. Thanks AJ9K! Before we run the simulations though, we like to break down each character's histories and abilities, before improvising a scenario on how we imagine one of the 1000 simulations would play out beat for beat.

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And I believe it's my turn to go first with the Marvel characters backstory, so let me tell you guys all about Madame Web. Now the story of Julia Carpenter's transformation into Madame Web begins with the story of her predecessor, Cassandra Web, the original Madame Web. Born in Salem, Oregon, Cassandra suffered from a condition known as myasthenia gravis, which left her blind and a quadriplegic confined to a wheelchair. In spite of her physical handicap-

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She developed a strong mind into her later years that was able to tap into the web of life and destiny, which is a five-dimensional construct of all reality, past, present, and future. This endowed her with psychic abilities, which she used as a medium telling people's fortunes in New York City, calling herself Madame Web. It was in New York that Cassandra was first visited by Peter Parker, who was shocked to learn that she knew of his alternate identity as Spider-Man.

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Cassandra assisted him in solving several mysterious criminal cases, and she became a valuable asset to Spider-Man's crime-fighting career. You can learn more about Spider-Man in his duel against Blue Beetle. Meanwhile, a couple of decades prior to Cassandra meeting Spider-Man, Julia Cornwall was born and raised in Los Angeles, California to Walter and Elizabeth Cornwall. She grew up and married her college boyfriend Larry Carpenter, and the pair moved to Denver, Colorado, where they had a daughter named Rachel.

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Larry became a politician and Julia joined a PR firm. Five years later, however, the pair got a divorce and Julia was awarded custody of their child. While living as a single mom, Julia ran into her college friend named Valerie Cooper, who was the chair of the U.S. Commission on Superhuman Activities, a government committee involved in dealing with the country's growing number of superhuman beings. After several failed attempts to control existing superpowered beings,

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the Commission decided it was time to create its own hero. To that end, they began recruiting potential candidates for a classified athletic study, and Chair Valerie Cooper enlisted her friend Julia to take part in their experiment. The Commission injected Julia with a formula of rare spider venoms and plant extracts found in the Amazon rainforest, which ended up gifting her with an enhanced physiology and the ability to produce strands of telekinetic energy that manifested like webbing.

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As the sole success of their experiment, Julia was dubbed by the commission Spider-Woman, and they sent her into the field as a superhero government operative. Juggling her top-secret identity with being a mother, Julia struggled in both her personal life and with her activities as a secret agent, receiving orders that occasionally put her in conflict with other heroes such as the X-Men and the Avengers. After helping the Avengers escape the vault prison after they were arrested on false treason

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Julia became a wanted fugitive from the government. Exacerbating the situation, Julia also found herself in a custody battle over her daughter Rachel with her ex-husband Larry, who eventually won due to Julia's absence and moved to California. Still on the run, Julia evaded authorities with help from Iron Man, and she relocated to California to be closer to her daughter. There, she joined the West Coast Avengers branch, which ended her fugitive status, eventually gaining back custody of Rachel,

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as she balanced being a mom and an Avenger. At this time, she revealed her superhero identity to her daughter and her parents, who were initially supportive but soon felt that her powers made her unfit as a mother. After the West Coast Avengers disbanded, Julia and her daughter moved back to Denver, where she fought crime and served as a reserve Avengers member. Eventually, the stories of Cassandra Webb and Julia Carpenter would cross when Cassandra's

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Granddaughter Charlotte Witter began stealing the powers of other spider-powered heroes, including Maddie Franklin and Jessica Drew, the latter of whom you can learn more about in our Queen Bee vs Spider-Woman duel episode. The women teamed up with Cassandra to defeat Witter, and eventually, Julia had her powers restored by a recreated spider formula and returned to crime fighting. When the U.S. Congress introduced the Superhuman Registration Act, which forced heroes to register with the government or face prosecution,

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Julia, now going by the code name Arachne, sided with Iron Man's pro-registration side, but secretly helped unregistered heroes evade capture, as she privately disagreed with the legislation. Julia was ultimately caught, however, and was forcibly arrested in front of her daughter Rachel. She was offered a pardon for her crimes, however, provided she serve on the Canadian government's new superhero team, Omega Flight, which was a spinoff of the country's renowned Alpha Flight team.

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Both Julia and Cassandra were kidnapped by the family of Craven the Hunter, who planned to sacrifice spider-powered heroes in an attempt to resurrect Craven through an occult ritual. The family slit Cassandra Webb's throat, who psychically transferred her ability to mentally access the Web of Life of Destiny into Julia, making her the new Madame Webb. Spider-Man was able to rescue Julia from being sacrificed as well.

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though the Craven family was successful in bringing Craven back from the dead, which you can learn more about in our Vixen vs Craven duel episode. And though Julia was now blind due to her new insight into the past, present, and future, her clairvoyance played a crucial role in helping Spider-Man overcome threats to New York, and she even saved his life on multiple occasions. When she experienced a vision of Spider-Man's death at the hands of Mephisto, an elder demon of hell whom you can learn more about in his duel against Sandman,

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Julia formed a team of spider-powered heroes called the Order of the Web, who fought to protect Spider-Man and fight other supernatural threats. Powers-wise, Madame Web has the combined power sets of her former Arachne identity and the original Madame Web. This grants her enhanced physicality, including increased strength able to lift around 10 tons, increased agility, speed, and durability. She can emit strands of telekinetic energy for a variety of effects, including strands

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which she can manipulate at will to swing from, ensnare opponents, and use to bind herself to surfaces in a wall-crawling effect. She can send out these psionic strands to use as invisible feelers to detect the environment around her and warn her of impending danger for a spider sense effect. Mataweb has access to see into the web of life and destiny, which she can use to get visions of potential futures, other locations in the present, and the past.

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She has limited telepathy, able to read minds and project her thoughts into the minds of others, allowing them to see her as an astral projection. She is also an adept hand-to-hand combatant due to her training from the Commission on Superhuman Activities. Her one weakness is that she is blind, but her psychic perception of her environment makes this barely a handicap. And that's Madame Web. So she's like a mixture between Daredevil and Spider-Man. Uh, with a little bit of Professor X thrown in there too. Okay.

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I'm not going to lie. A little scared, a little scared, a little bit. You should be. But I will argue that Wesley Dodds is just the cooler character because you really don't get cooler than Wesley Dodds. He's so noir and like that pulpy kind of like the shadow comes in. Avenger Spider-Man or no, no. Fuck that guy. That guy's that guy's a poser. Wesley Dodds is the real deal. Let me get into his backstory.

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Now Wesley Dodds was born in the 1910s to a Jewish couple, Edward and Marina Dodds, though Marina died in 1917 while Wesley's father served in World War I. Raised by his military father, Wesley traveled the Orient, where he acquired various skills such as herbalism and martial arts. After graduating from college, Wesley briefly served as a pilot for the US Navy until his father died.

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Wesley also took on the same career as his father had before the war, an investor. Wesley became a wealthy socialite, though at night he was plagued by nightmares of crimes, murders, and a mysterious figure in a strange mask. Unbeknownst to Wesley, the lord of the dream world, Morpheus, had been imprisoned by a British occultist named Roderick Burgess, causing many individuels around the world to have strange sleeping patterns, Wesley being one of them.

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After realizing the events in his dreams were coming true, Wesley decided he needed to do something about it and created a secret laboratory in his basement where he experimented with various herb and chemical mixtures to craft a formula for a powerful sedative whose vapors could put people into a deep sleep. Initially using a WWI gas mask to protect him from his own sleeping gas, Wesley became a fedora-wearing vigilante known as the Sandman.

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knocking out the criminals and serial killers they had seen in his dreams. Early in his crime-fighting career, he encountered another masked vigilante, the Crimson Avenger, who Wesley thought was a criminal, but turned out to be his old college friend, the Travis. Lee gave Wesley a design for a gas gun, which Wesley crafted and perfected over the years, along with various other gadgets, including a grappling gun.

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Wesley had met and fallen for Diane Belmont, the daughter of New York City's District Attorney, Larry Belmont. Within a year, Diane deduced Wesley's alter ego as the Sandman and began aiding him in his missions, often feeding him information from her father's files and acting as his getaway driver. When America became involved in World War II, President Franklin Roosevelt recruited Wesley and various other mystery men to form the Justice Society of America.

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a team of superheroes that you could learn more about in our Justice Society vs. Fantastic Four episode. While Wesley was away with the JSA, Diane decided that for one sabotage case she had been working on to don one of Wesley's Sandman outfits and ended up being shot and killed by a Nazi agent. Devastated, Wesley began wearing a new, more colorful and superheroic outfit that Diane had designed for him to fight crime. Wesley also adopted Diane's young nephew.

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an orphan named Sanderson Hawkins. Sandy idolized Sandman and trained hard to be like him one day. Wesley soon revealed his Sandman identity to Sandy, and Sandy became his crime-fighting sidekick, aiding him in their World War II adventures with a new expanded wartime superteam known as the All-Star Squadron. Hoping to improve his crime-fighting abilities, Wesley engineered a silicoid gun.

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which would have used irradiated silicon to create constructs of sand and glass. The device exploded upon its first use, however, bombarding and infusing the radioactive particles into Sandy, transforming him into a raging sand monster. Though Wesley was able to sedate and capture Sandy, he was unable to cure him, so he kept him sedated and hidden in a glass chamber in his basement.

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Wesley retired from superheroics, as by this time, many of the Justice Society's members were forced into retirement when the US government began requiring all masked Avengers to reveal their secret identities and operate strictly under government orders. Wesley spent decades in retirement trying to find a cure for Sandy when an earthquake broke Sandy's glass prison and caused him to go on a mad rampage. Wesley donned his Sandman outfit once again.

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and successfully stopped his former protege, only to learn that Sandy had regained his lucidity shortly after his imprisonment and had been conscious all these years. Guilt-stricken, Wesley retired once again, even going so far as to get a psychiatrist named Dr. Raymond Baxter to hypnotize him into forgetting he ever was the Sandman. Wesley eventually remembered his past, however, and along with other retired former JSA members,

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came out of retirement seemingly one last time to help the Norse gods prevent the end of the world in Ragnarok in a continuous and eternal loop within the realm of Limbo. After the Crisis on Infinite Earths event merged the multiverse into a single universe, the JSA members eventually returned from Limbo, and Wesley retired once more, dream free, and now with Diane, who had never died in the new timeline.

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The two decided to liquidate all of their assets and travel the world. She died shortly after the two arrived in Tibet, and Wesley had one final dream that predicted not only his own impending death, but the location of who the next Doctor Fate would be. After sending this information to his old JSA allies, Wesley was confronted by the evil

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Rather than reveal Dr. Fate's location through torture, Wesley threw himself off of a mountain cliff, killing himself. He and Diane were buried in Valhalla, a cemetery for superheroes, and Sandy gave the eulogy. After the Flash reset DC's continuity, Wesley Dodds was the commander of a gove teleporting paramilitary force known as the Sandmen on Earth-2. In DC's Prime Universe, however,

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Wesley remained dead until Deadman brought him back to life as a zombie detective in order to help him in an unresolved case involving a nigh death cult that Wesley had encountered decades prior. You can learn more about Deadman in our Deadman vs. Magic duel episode. Though Deadman offered to return Wesley back to his grave, Wesley agreed to help Deadman until the case was finished.

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Sandman is cursed with prophetic nightmares, though he is also a trained martial artist, an expert chemist, and an accomplished inventor, having devised several gas formulas that include a powerful sedative and a truth serum. He's also engineered a gas gun, a grappling gun, an experimental silicoid gun, and a gas mask that not only filters his breathing, but also allows him to see through the gas

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and even breathe underwater. That's the Sandman. Now, I'm not gonna lie. I'm actually a really big fan of DC's Sandman. He's probably my favorite DC Comics character if I had to boil it down, being a Marvel fan, you know? I just really like the look and the pulpiness of the character. You know, as iconic as someone as Ghost Rider's look is, I think Sandman's look is just as iconic with that gas mask and everything like that. He's really cool. Oh yeah, just seeing like those glowing eyes in the mist.

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like walking through the fog with his fedora and trench coat. It doesn't get cooler. It's weird, though, that there are so many characters in Marvel and DC named Sandman. Like you have the Spider-Man villain who's made out of literal sand. You have the God of Dreams Sandman, and then you also have this Sandman who puts people to sleep. And I just want to state that even though I think the Wesley Dodds version of the Sandman looks the coolest out of the three, Marvel Sandman is still the better character. And you can learn more about him in our Sandman versus Red Tornado duel episode.

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where you'll find out that he is in fact not the best of the three characters. Judge for yourself is all I'll say.

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Where fantasies collide and heroes clash, one podcast network rises above the rest. Prepare yourself for the ultimate showdowns in comic books, video games, movies, and anime. The Dynomic Podcast Network presents Console Combat, where video game legends brawl every Monday. Dynamic Duel, where comic book titans smash every Tuesday. Max Destruction, where the world is at its limit.

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TV and action heroes battle every Wednesday, and Sendro World, where anime champions clash every Thursday. Join us as we speculate on the matches and armed with the power of mathematical simulations, discover who will emerge victorious. Visit dynamicpodcast.com where we settle the debate and settle the score.

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Well, now that we've got their histories and abilities out of the way, let's speculate on how one of the 1000 simulated matches will go. The winner is determined by simulations, not this speculation, but it's fun to imagine how this fight could play out. AJ9K, what are the rules of our speculation? Well, I should say there are no rules, other than the characters have no prior knowledge of the other going into the fight. All they are aware of starting out is that the other character is a threat that needs to be eliminated.

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For the speculation, the contestants will begin approximately 50 meters apart in a nondescript environment that will have no bearing on the match itself, as no environmental statistics are considered in my simulations. The contestants must earn victory on their own merit. Alright then, let's get into it. Sandman and Madame Webb meet on the battlefield. Who goes first? I'm going to say that Madame Webb goes first, and she's going to get a premonition of her winning this match. And she's like, I got this.

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No, because Wesley already went first last night when he choked about this match and how he wins. And it all starts with Wesley whipping out his gas gun and just flooding the environment with sleeping gas. Madam Webb, she's going to fall asleep. So match over. No, she's going to perceive the gas cloud coming at her. And so she's going to leap into the air.

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and generate this psionic web and she just walks along it like a tightrope walker above the cloud of gas and the gas isn't gonna hide Sandman like she's still gonna be able to perceive where he is through her psionic web feelers. Well feel this! Sandman sees Madame Web hovering over the gas cloud so he draws his harpoon gun and fires it right at her and that harpoon's gonna stick in her shoulder and she's just gonna get yanked down into the gas toward him like a fish on a hook.

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No, she- but she has her own version of Spidey Sense, right? So she's gonna detect this harpoon gun being fired at her. She's gonna leap out of the way off of her tightrope, and she's gonna swing over to an area of the environment that isn't filled with gas, but like 15, 20 meters away, and she's gonna use her psionic webbing to ensnare Sandman and yank him out of the gas cloud toward her. And she's just gonna roundhouse kick him to the floor. No, actually, all she kicks is a trench coat.

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because he slipped it off once he started getting pulled by her webbing. And when she kicked the coat, she actually broke a gas capsule that he had in his pocket. So she just doused herself with his sleeping gas and put herself to sleep. All right. But as she's, you know, feeling herself being sedated at the last second, she's going to expel her astral form from her physical body, which is now sleeping on the floor and her astral spirit.

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is gonna reach out into Sandman's mind so that he can see her. And he's gonna be super confused as to like how she's both sleeping on the ground and in front of him. And she's gonna swing a punch at him. And you know, he's gonna dodge it because he doesn't know that she's actually incorporeal, but she's gonna keep attacking him to buy her time to wake up. Okay, well, I mean, to an outside observer, Sandman's probably just swinging wildly at the air.

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But he's a trained martial artist, so he'd catch on over time when he realizes that neither his or her attacks are landing, right? So that's when he's gonna rush over to Madame Webb's real body, you know, still on the ground, and... I don't know, he's just gonna start kicking the shit out of her unconscious body? Well, if he's beating the shit out of her on the ground, that's gonna snap her out of her sleep, you know?

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Plus she's like really durable, so Sandman kicking her, it's not gonna hurt her as much as he'd probably like. So she's gonna wake up and immediately she's gonna wrap him up from head to toe in psionic webbing. So like he can't move his arms, his legs, like they're just completely ensnared. So he's gonna fall over and she's gonna return the favor by kicking the shit out of him while he's incapacitated. And her kicks hurt a lot worse.

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All right, well, I mean, little did Madam Webb know, though, Sandman had a like maximum potent gas capsule hidden in his sleeve, which he crushes, causing a cloud of smoke to surround him. And when Madam Webb breathes that in as she's bidding the shit out of him, it's going to place her into a lifelong coma that she never wakes up from. Match over just as Sandman predicted. He has capsules that can put people in comas.

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Uh, yeah, lifelong comas. He actually has only used this once, but yeah, it's a thing. Okay, shit. Uh, well, I mean, that's how one potential scenario could have gone, according to Madam Web's precognition, you know? So she gets this vision of how that all went down, and she realizes that if she just rips off Sandman's mask at the start, then, you know, he can't do shit. So she does that. You know, she rips off his mask with her web ink back.

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at the start of this match, and Sandman instantly puts his own self to sleep and matches over before it ever really began. Dude, that- the real timeline that matters is the one we started with, not this new bullshit one. It's not multiple timelines. No, everything that happened that we just described was just a vision of a potential timeline and what actually happened is Sandman put himself down for night-night- No, cause Sandman dreamed about Madam Web-

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having a premonition about that potential future, and he just made sure to pack a backup mask. Okay, but Sandman's dream of Madam Web's vision altered her vision, so the new vision incorporates the second mask, so he's gonna need to bring infinite masks if he wants to win this thing. Nah, because he saw that coming too. Man. I don't even know how we leave this off. Like...

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What actually happens here? Either Sandman puts Madam Web into a lifelong coma or none of that ever happened and Madam Web just steals his mask and he's screwed. Exactly. One of those scenarios is gonna happen. We'll go ahead and find out which one by inputting the character stats, running the simulations and coming back with the winner. AG9K, hit it.

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Processing results. Simulations complete. All right, this is a pretty fun matchup. It gets a little bit crazy when characters can perceive future events. And it quickly spirals into infinity real quick. Regarding the stats though, the characters were not very similar at all. I mean, they were both equal when it came to things like versatility, fighting skill, and their range, but they had very little else in common.

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Yeah, we said that Sandman came out on top when it came to evasiveness and intelligence. We said he was smarter than Madame Webb. But we said that Madame Webb was much more perceptive because not only does she have precognitive visions like Sandman, but she also has her spider sense. She's also a lot stronger and therefore can do more physical damage than Sandman. She's also faster. Yeah, physically, she was definitely more impressive than Sandman. But

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does that really matter when he's smarter? It's kind of like a brain versus brawn scenario we have here. I think enough brawn can just beat the shit out of a brain, for sure. That's what people with no brains think. Well, Jonathan, considering these stats, who do you think is going to win this fight when we get the results? I have to root for Sandman. He's such an awesome character. Madame Webb sucks. And those who voted in our Instagram poll agree.

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66% of them said that Sandman would beat Madame Webb. So about two thirds. I think those people are just hating because of the Madame Webb movie and they're not giving her credit where credit is due. That's my assumption. Yeah, that's probably fair. But let's find out who really won. AJ 9K, the results please. Hey, Yuasa. All right, after running 1000 simulations, the winner between Sandman and Madame Webb

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is Madam Web. Psych! No, it wasn't even really that close. Out of 1000 simulations, Madam Web won 743 matches, whereas Sandman only won 257. She kind of beat his ass. But her movie sucked! Uh, I mean this version of Madam Web had both the psychic powers and the Spider-Man powers, so...

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She doesn't suck as much as, you know, the movie might have you believe. She's actually pretty badass. You know, I was looking forward to this match because Wesley Dodd's Sandman is like my hero and I am not going to lie. I'm super disappointed. I do have to say, though, I'm still proud of the guy, even though he lost by a lot. At the end of the day, Madame Webb will always be remembered as the character having the shitty movie. And Wesley Dodd's will always just have that classic iconic noir

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vibe to him that you just can't take away. It's like he's so cool, he can't lose. That just sounds like a pathetic coping mechanism for the fact that your boy got humiliated by Madam Webb. Oh yeah, 100% is. I do not deny that. Which is fine by me, your disappointment and humiliation is like my sustenance. I live for that shit. More copium, straight to the vein.

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That does it for this duel guys. Let us know what you thought about the results by writing to us at dyna or by visiting us on Instagram, which you can find a link to in our show notes or by going on our website at dynamicduel.com. And on our site, you could also find a link to our Patreon page where you could join our dynamic 2-0 tier and chat with us and fellow listeners, our fantastic 4 tier, which gets you bonus content each month, our X-Force tier that makes you an executive producer of this podcast.

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or our newest tier that lets you join our DynaMic Podcast Network. And guys, please don't forget to rate our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podchaser, or on our website directly. As we mentioned earlier, in our next episode, we will be reviewing the Netflix series Dead Boy Detectives, which is a spin-off series of The Sandman, also on Netflix's Terrific Show.

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Yeah, my only experience with the Dead Boy Detectives was their guest appearance on the Doom Patrol TV series, but that was a fantastic episode. So, semi-looking forward to the show. I haven't started it yet, but I've actually heard good things. I remember I did not like the trailer, but here's hoping it's as good as they say. We'll find out next week.

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That does it for this episode, we want to give a big thanks to our executive producers Ken Johnson, John Strosky, Zachary Hepburn, Dustin Balcom, Miggy Mathengian, Brandon Estregard, Nathaniel Wagner, Levi Yeaton, Austin Wazilovski, AJ Dunkerley, Scott Camacho, Adam Spies, Andrew Shunk, Dean Molesky, and Devin Davis for helping make this podcast possible. We'll talk to you guys next week. Up up and away, true believers. I'm getting a premonition right now. In my pants.