Batman Review - Special Guest Ready 2 Retro

00:22
Hi and welcome to the Dynamic Duel Podcast, a weekly show where we review superhero films and debate the superiority between Marvel and DC by comparing their characters in stat-based battle simulations. I'm Marvelous Joe. And I'm his twin brother, Johnny DC. And in this episode, we are going to do a throwback review to the 1989 film Batman starring Michael Keaton directed by Tim Burton. We're going to have a very special guest join us for this review, Max from the Ready 2 Retro Podcast.

00:51
Yeah, and of course, this episode is a tie in to our last episode, which was a review of The Flash, which has Michael Keaton's Batman character in it. But before we get into the review of Batman, we're going to go over the latest comic book movie news to come out this past week, including the Craven the Hunter official red band trailer that came out from Sony. As always, we list our segment times in our episode description, so feel free to check out the show notes if you want to skip ahead to a particular topic.

01:19
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01:42
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02:01
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02:31
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03:01
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03:29
Thank you guys so much for joining our community and we hope you enjoy that bonus content too. But with that out of the way, quick to the no prize! A no prize is an award Marvel used to give out to fans. Our version, the Dynamic duel No Prize, is a digital award that we post on Instagram and in our email newsletter for the person that we feel gave the best answer to our question of the week. Last week's question was, who would you cast as Batman and Robin in the Batman Brave and the Bold upcoming film?

03:58
We got a lot of answers for this question, so let's go ahead and run down our honorable mentions as well as the no prize winner. Our first honorable mention goes to Brandon Estregard, who said. Hey guys, I'm casting Jensen Ackles as Batman and Aiden Gallagher as Robin. Jensen Ackles would be an amazing choice for an established Batman who isn't past this peak. If you've seen Umbrella Academy, you already know why Aiden would be the perfect Damian, but for those who haven't, let me assure you that you can definitely pull off the

04:26
arrogance, anger, and focus that you need for somebody who's going to be playing Damian Wayne. Yeah, and surprisingly, Christopher Minotti gave the exact same answer with the same exact casting choices. Yeah, Jensen Ackles and Aiden Gallagher. Jensen Ackles currently does the voice of Batman in the Tomorrowverse universe of animated films for DC. Of course, the actor came to fame in the Supernatural television series. I think he'd be a great older Batman in Bruce Wayne. Yeah, yeah. I think you could definitely pull it off.

04:56
I've always kind of wished he would play Jason Todd, the Red Hood, probably because he did a great job voicing Jason Todd in the animated Batman Under the Red Hood film, which is just phenomenal. But yeah, he's probably too old now to play Jason Todd. I think it would make a great Bruce Wayne. He definitely has that like playboy kind of look, but also like a dark aspect to him that works well for the character. Aiden Gallagher is also a great actor. I think he probably would have been good for Damien maybe 10 years ago.

05:26
I believe he's like already 19 years old, which to me, the younger you cast Damien, the better. If he's already, you know, an older teenager, you lose some of the charm with the character. Yeah, he goes from like a an endearing badass to just a friggin jerk. Right, exactly. But great choices. Our next honor roll mention goes to Jeff Miles Jr. who said, Hey, John and Joe, it is Jeff Miles. My answer for the fan cast of Batman, the brave and the bold.

05:55
is Keanu Reeves as Bruce Wayne and Javon Walton as Damien Wayne. I just think that Javon did an amazing job in Euphoria playing a little badass and I would love to see his role as Damien to Keanu Reeves, Bruce Wayne. Let me know what you think. Yeah, like Jensen Ackles, Keanu Reeves recently did a voice for the Batman character in the

06:24
I thought he had a great Batman voice and of course, you know, Keanu Reeves is the shit. He's awesome as John Wick. He's a great action movie star. I think he'd be an awesome Batman as well. Yeah, I mean, if the role is calling for an older Batman that could be, you know, a believable seasoned superhero and father, I think you can't go wrong with Keanu Reeves. And regarding Jovan Walton, I haven't actually seen anything with him, but you know, he's only 16 years old and it looks like he's getting into professional boxing. That's badass.

06:54
And what is Damien Wayne, if not a badass? I don't know any of the kids work because I haven't seen you for you, but the kid looks like a little badass. He totally looks like he could kick Jonathan's ass for sure. Wait, what? No, I mean, we could run the stats and see who will come out on top. I don't know. Great answer, Jeff Miles Jr. Our next honorable mention goes to Jacob Bell, who said, What's up, guys, it's Jacob Bell.

07:22
I've been thinking about this a ton and I'm just gonna go for it. So for Batman, give me Jake Gyllenhaal. I know it's probably a popular choice but he's just a good actor and so I think whatever you put him in he can pull it off. And then for Damien Wayne Robin give me Noah Jupe or Jupe or however you pronounce it. He's great in everything I've seen him in. I think they would be a great pairing and the age works as well.

07:50
Now, Jake Gyllenhaal is one of my all time favorite actors. The guy could do no wrong. He could play comedy. He could play action. He also has this darkness about him that would lend itself well to Batman and Bruce Wayne. I feel I've always actually wanted to see him in the role of Batman. Noah Joop, I'm not so sure about that. I don't know how to pronounce his name either. Jupp or Joop. He's an 18 year old British actor. But I think for the role of Damien Wayne, you want to get somebody with either.

08:18
East Asian or Middle Eastern vibes. Yeah, and once again, I can't say this enough, the younger the better because any adult martial artist can kick anyone's ass, but for like a young like 10 year old to kick someone's ass, that's next level badassery, which is what Damien should be. Yeah, he should be like Hit Girl from the kick ass movie. Exactly. So great answer, Jacob. We want to give a quick shout out to Scott Camacho and Abner O'Terry.

08:46
for also taking the time to visit our website and record an answer. But the winner of this week's No Prize is Miggy Mathengian, who said. Hey, what's up guys, this is Miggy. And I would cast Zac Efron as Batman, Gordon Cormier as Damian Wayne, and Michaela Hoover as Talia Al Ghul. Zac Efron would have been a great Nightwing, but he's a little too old now, but he's still got the look and the bod.

09:13
Damien is half Asian so I cast Gordon because he is half Filipino. Got to represent. Michaela Hoover is Iranian-American and she's friends with James Gunn so it would actually probably happen. Now this answer gets the no prize primarily for its Damien Wayne casting. I mean Zac Efron, sure. He could be Bruce Wayne. He could definitely pull off the Playboy aspect and stuff. And he's pretty built too. I think he could do it. But Gordon Cormier or Cormier or however you pronounce it.

09:42
He's going to be Aang in the upcoming Netflix live action Avatar The Last Airbender series. He looks fantastic for the part of Damien Wayne. Yeah, and right now I think he's only age 13. By the time the Brave and the Bold movie comes out, he'll be like 15, possibly at the earliest. I think this is a perfect casting choice. And we already know that he's good with martial arts because he was cast in the lead role for a martial arts of sorts, focused television series.

10:10
To me, there's no better casting decision that could be made for this role than Gordon. Plus, Miggie gets a little bit of extra credit for also casting Talia al Ghul. And it's not a bad choice! Michaela Hoover totally could pull off Talia. So congrats Miggie for winning this week's No Prize. If you the listener want a shot at winning your own No Prize, stay tuned to later on this episode when we'll be asking another Question of the Week. And now that that's done, on to the news!

10:41
Alright this past week we got the Red Band trailer for Craven the Hunter. We also got the Green Band trailer but we're not going to discuss it because it's not worth discussing because really the only interesting thing about this movie is likely it's our rating. Yeah I haven't even seen the Green Band trailer anyway so can't talk about it. Basically it's the same thing minus the Blood and Guts. It's kind of a weird trailer is the best way I could describe it. I have a lot of questions after seeing it.

11:06
Aaron Taylor Johnson plays Sergei Kravinov, who is a Spider-Man villain from the comic books known as Kraven the Hunter. His father is Nikolai Kravinov, part of a long line of Russian aristocratic hunters. But in this trailer, it really seems more like Russell Crowe is the Sergei Kravinov from the comic books, the way he acts and everything like that, because Sergei is very harsh with his two sons. Oh, Sergei is the one with two sons in the comics?

11:36
But here, you know, he is one of the sons, again, played by Aaron Taylor Johnson. His brother, I'm assuming, is Dmitriy Smirdiakov, who is also known as the Chameleon, who is another Spider-Man villain. Though in the books, I believe they're only half brothers. But we see Sergey Kravinov, aka Kraven the Hunter, chased down the car barefoot, which is in keeping with his powers in the books. Basically in the comics, Kraven was given a herbal potion.

12:02
Concocted by his lover Calypso, which granted him longevity, strength and an animalistic physique. Although here, it looks like Craven also has the ability to mentally control animals. And he didn't get his powers from an herbal potion, but rather a radioactive lion bite, apparently. Or like the radioactive lion's blood dripped into an open wound. Something...

12:27
weird like that. What the hell is going on there? It's so bizarre. Why couldn't they just go with like herbal potion? Like if anything more believable than being bitten by a lion and getting his powers or something, you know? Especially since Calypso is in the movie. Exactly, yeah. Calypso's played by Ariana Dubois. You could have easily had her as part of his origin. I don't know what the fuck the movie is doing. We see that Craven decides to go after his father's business.

12:57
I guess Russell Crowe's character is involved in some shady dealings, perhaps some poaching or something like that. That is true to the comics. There was a point after the Craven's Last Hunt storyline where Craven kind of became an anti-hero going after poachers and at one point even became his own version of Spider-Man, but that was shortly before he was killed by a clone of himself. Where he kind of reverted to more of the villainous type that he usually is.

13:22
But it seems like the Sony villain Spider-Man movies are turning all of their characters into anti-heroes. Including Venom, even though that's partially true to the comics. Morbius, also true to the comics. And Kraven. So I guess they picked the right three characters who in the comics have all had some anti-heroic tendencies. Yeah, and all of them apparently could also run across walls. That's true. Yeah, we see Kraven like leaping along walls like he's Toad from the X-Men or something. So weird.

13:52
We also see him bite a guy's nose off. That wasn't as cool as I thought it was going to look, according to the description of the trailer that we got a few weeks back. I thought it was going to be badass, but seeing him bite the guy's nose off is just kind of gross. Yeah, it was a little too on the nose. Like even pause for dramatic effect to be like, you see how crazy this is? This is fucking crazy, isn't it? I was just like, I guess.

14:17
Yeah. And then he spits it out. You think you wouldn't want to hold a nose in your mouth for that long. You know, you like you bite it, you spit it out right away. You don't just kind of like meditate on it for a while and like lean towards the camera. What really bothered me in this trailer, though, was his accent. Like there's one point where some guys like there's six of us and he's like six of you for now. Or I can't do accents, but he has an accent. Right. Whereas later on in the movie, no accents to be had.

14:47
Which is weird considering his father played by Russell Crowe has a very thick Russian accent. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, well, Aaron Taylor Johnson did do like a Eastern European accent for his Quicksilver character that he played in the MCU. And I'm wondering if maybe they decided to ditch the Russian accent to avoid comparisons between the two roles. I mean, if they wanted to do that, I probably would have, you know, changed up his look a little bit more given him a haircut because Aaron Taylor Johnson looks like

15:16
fucking Aaron Taylor Johnson in this movie. It's the same look he has for every other character he's been playing lately. Yeah, he definitely doesn't look like Craven the Hunter at all, except for like one shot where we see him wearing the lion's mane vest type thing. For the most part, he just looks like some generic action dude running around beating up bad guys. Oh yeah, the lion vest was when he was holding like a flaming spear. Yeah. That was interesting. There are some interesting shots on this.

15:41
Like also when the spiders are all around him and I was like, oh, does he have like a fear of spiders that might be like an interesting thing to play up on later on? No, I hate that. That's stupid. At the very end of this trailer, we get a shot of Alexei Sistovich, aka the Rhino. It looks like the Rhino is going to be the primary villain for this Craven the Hunter movie, which is bizarre to me because Rhino is a fellow Spider-Man villain in the comics.

16:07
I'm assuming that they're going with the rhino because of the Russian ties between the characters. The rhino having ties to the former KGB. It makes sense to me. Also considering that the rhino is like an animal, an African one that, you know, people have poached, unfortunately. So I think it works. I'm going to also guess that the chameleon is going to be a villain in this as well. His brother. But we'll see. The rhino skin effect is pretty crappy for now.

16:36
You know, it's just a trailer, but at least this looks better and more true to the comics than the weird suit of armor that Paul Giamatti wore in The Amazing Spider-Man 2. Oh yeah, already the Rhino in this movie is better than the one in Amazing Spider-Man 2. Didn't take much. We'll see what the movie's like when it comes out. It's expected on October 6th of this year. My final big question is whether or not Sony's going to use the Rhino as part of their planned Sinister Six movie, which I think this is all.

17:04
building towards or at least supposed to be building towards. But that brings us to our question of the week.

17:13
After Venom, Morbius, Vulture, and Kraven, what two other Spidey villains do you want to get their own films and join Sony's Sinister Six? Record your answer at dynamicduel.com by clicking on the red microphone button in the bottom right hand corner of the screen, which will prompt you to leave us a voicemail. Your message can be up to 30 seconds long, and don't forget to leave your name in case we include you on the podcast. We'll pick our favorite answer and award that person at Dynamic Duel no prize.

17:43
that we'll post to Instagram and our email newsletter. You actually have an extra week to record an answer for this because there will not be a question of the week next episode, so please make sure to submit your answer before July 8th.

18:04
But I think that does it for all the news for this episode, so let's go ahead and get into our main event and get Max from the Ready 2 Retro podcast on the line as we review the 1989 film, Batman.

18:30
So, Batman, directed by Tim Burton and released in 1989, stars Michael Keaton in the lead role. As children of the 90s, Joseph and I watched this movie on VHS quite frequently, so it's a huge source of nostalgia. I can't believe it's taken us seven years of doing this podcast before we got to it, but as it turns out, it's perfect timing, with Michael Keaton returning to the role of Batman in this year's Flash movie.

18:58
Seeing him there made us want to revisit the superhero classic once again, and to help us review the film, we were joined by none other than Max Boyle of the Ready 2 Retro podcast, who's pretty familiar with revisiting classic films. How's it going, Max? Hey, guys, it is great to be back on this podcast, and I'm always down to talk some Batman. Hell yeah. Nice. We had you on for the Spider-Man review. And, uh, geez, I feel like since then, your podcast has just taken off. You're having like

19:27
celebrities like every episode on your show. Right. It's awesome. Well, we're trying. We're trying. So yeah, but it's not like, you know, we don't have George Clooney. We have like the guy who's holding George Clooney's jacket, you know, like I want to know that guy's story. That's still an awesome story for sure. Exactly. Well, they based an entire podcast on just that, like the extras that were on famous movies and stuff. It's called I Was There Too. Oh, that's cool. I got to check that out. Yeah, that's a pretty good podcast. Yeah.

19:56
I realize I just totally threw all my guests under the bus. No, I love what I do and our guests are great, but yeah, we're trying to just branch out as much as possible. We started off talking about 80s and 90s pop culture stuff and now we're broadening it and we're able to meet a lot of awesome people. A few months ago, we had the composer of Power Rangers and X-Men, Ron Wasserman, he was on. It's awesome time to...

20:25
to be a nostalgic fan and it's an awesome time to be a podcaster. For sure, yeah. And we were on your episodes a few times. I think I reviewed The Matrix with you. Yeah, early on. And then we did Batman and the Ninja Turtles, the animated movie. That was a fun one. That was pretty fun as well. But do you have any nostalgic tie to the Batman movie that came out in 1989? Of course, I mean, being a 90s kid, who doesn't, right? So I was born in 1990, so what I remember...

20:52
is, you know, like the George Clooney and Val Kilmer, Batman's and stuff. But I remember associating like the Tim Burton movies as like being the scary Batman movies. Right. Yes, absolutely. Especially Batman returns with the Penguin. And but yeah, I mean, who didn't watch these movies growing up in the 90s? It was like everyone had the VHS, you know, the VHS broke. Oh, yeah. Records and things like that. So this was.

21:21
huge part of just pop culture and growing up in the 90s. Speaking of the VHS, do you remember the opening bits like before the movie even started where they had those commercials? One of them was for like Diet Coke or something like that. But the other one was like Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck talking about how you need to get the Warner Brothers catalog. Look what I have here. It's my Warner Brothers ball cat.

21:45
Yeah, Jonathan's a true company man wearing it for this review. His actual Warner Brothers blog app. Got to do it. You just have to. Yeah, no, I there's certain movies where I actually remember the opening credits and all the commercials than the actual movie. It was just iconic. Jonathan and I did not see this movie in theaters because we were too young. We were born in 86. We definitely saw Batman Returns in theaters. And I remember falling asleep at the moment that Christopher Walken got electrocuted around that time.

22:15
But we were only three years old when Batman 89 came out. But most of our nostalgic love for this movie comes from the VHS. Exactly. Yeah, no, it's super nostalgic. I have to say, like, there have been a lot of great takes on Batman since this film. But like no one has quite captured the Gothic tone of Batman that the way Tim Burton has. And I think that's the primary reason why the film is so iconic. Like the art direction, for lack of a better word, is artistic.

22:43
And like so much more so than many other films. It's just so memorable. Absolutely. And especially that one scene where it's towards the end, where the Batmobile is just going through the forest. Yeah. And that is like Batman right there. Right. That is Tim Burton. That is Batman. And it's a beautiful mixture. And I was thinking about it, the influence of this movie. And it's crazy to think here we are reviewing this movie in 2023.

23:09
and there is a superhero movie like every three months. Back then, it was considered a risk. Like, I would say there is no dynamic duel without this movie. Batman would just it kicked ass and everyone went to see it in the theaters. Hands down. Yeah, absolutely. The film was it was a box office juggernaut. I would say this film and the Richard Donner films, which came out like 10 years earlier, the first one. But yeah, absolutely. No dynamic duel.

23:39
without DC films. Well, Marvel too. Come on. No, no, Blade. DC. Blade was more modern than this movie. Like this was a good movie. But watching it again, I haven't seen Batman 89 in a long time. Got over a decade, maybe two decades, really. But when I watched it, I think it held up well. But I was reminded that just how of the time period it was. I honestly think it held up better than.

24:05
I thought it would, because it has been a while since I've seen it. It's definitely at least a few years. But I think a lot of that has to do just with the world building that they did. One of the great things about DC Comics is that you can actually world build. Gotham City could be its own unique fantastical thing. And it doesn't have to be New York City or Chicago or anywhere else. And I think Tim Burton really understood that for this film. This version of Gotham is so well imagined.

24:34
Not only in terms of like the seediness, but like in its towering Gothic architecture, it's really a sight to behold. Like there weren't nearly enough gargoyles and the Christopher Nolan or like Zack Snyder films, you know, or even Matt Reeves films. Tim Burton, I think, was a much bigger fan, I would argue, of Batman than maybe those directors. That's just a guess. And I think because this movie was released in 1989, made in 1988, you.

25:03
have the benefit of not having CG be the prominent thing. Oh yeah. It's taking over, you know what I mean? I was just at the Museum of the Academy Awards this past weekend and they have original map paintings from Batman Returns. Oh no way. Yeah, so you're able to see the artistic expressions through the set designs and I think, you talked about world building.

25:27
That's what this movie does really well is you are immersed in that freaking world and you don't want to escape from it. Yeah, for sure. I think that's Tim Burton's main quality as a director, actually. He is very artistic in his approach and he does like to really craft these new fantastical worlds in all of his films. And it's not just like the sets. It's like the entire world because like even the props in this film are amazing and iconic and incredible. Like the bat grapple. There's no better prop.

25:57
in all of cinematic history, in my opinion, than the Batmobile. I mean, if you consider that a prop, I'm not sure if you can. But whatever it is, it is the best. Yeah, actually, this past April, I visited the Warner Brothers Studio Tour. Oh, jealous. Yeah, dude, it's awesome. They have this whole DC part and they have the 1989 Batmobile there. And I got goosebumps just looking at it because you're just like, dude, that is the Batmobile. Like, there's nothing that comes.

26:25
into comparison with that, like that is the best. And and my eyes are seeing it like in person. It's great. And if anybody has an opportunity to visit L.A., go to the Warner Brothers Studio tour, because it's totally worth it just to see the Batmobile. Jonathan's head would explode if he saw that and his dick would explode. I don't know. At the same time. I I feel like I would not be able to go on that tour because I would just be trying to steal so much stuff.

26:54
including the Batmobile. They were like, all right, guys, let's hatch a plan. We're going to steal this thing. We're going to own it. It's going to be incredible. It would be a heist movie in its own. It would be worth it. Any present time. I don't care. I'll take it. Is is the 89 Batmobile Max, your favorite Batmobile? I is there anything else that comes close to it? No, I mean, honestly, it's the best. Maybe the animated series Batmobile. But

27:22
Other than that, no, it's 89 hands down for me. Same. I agree. Yeah, absolutely. Because it's got that weird nipple on the tip, too. That's kind of cool. That's the original bat nipple. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, the film doesn't only have the best batmobile, but like also the best bat plane, like the bats in the Nolan films, the flying fox and Justice League have nothing on this film's bat plane. That scene of it flying up and silhouetting against the moon. I don't care what anyone says.

27:52
the best cinematic scenes in history. Hands down. Yeah, I had in my notes, this is top 10 super heroes, scenes or moments. But I can throw it into all cinema. Sure, it would rank top 50. I'm down. Absolutely. Not a top one wasn't at least top one. Yeah, the bad plane was really well realized in this movie. It was even hard for me to tell that it was a special effect. It was so well done. And I think a lot of that has to do like

28:21
with what you said, Max, is that there was no CG. Everything had to be practical. I kind of miss that in films like everything is just a green screen nowadays. This this film definitely came from a different era, a better era, arguably. Wow. You sound like an old man right now. I do. I absolutely do. But there's something about it where it's just practical effects. And here's the nostalgia guy talking about it, right? But there's something real that's there, right? Everything is either matte painting.

28:49
or it's there, it's on the set. Right. Now, to complement the visuals we see on screen, Danny Elfman's score for the Batman is so unbelievably iconic and fitting for this dark gothic take on the character. It's so dynamic with this ominous, quiet moments that build into these powerful swells. Anytime I listen to it, it's like a rush of nostalgia, still to this day. Oh yeah, I mean, for my money, I think...

29:17
the Batman score is Danny Elfman's best work. Yeah, and that's controversial because even the Spider-Man track is really good. But the 1980s. I meant besides that. Oh, besides that. No, no, we all heard you. We all heard you. But speaking of Danny Elfman, you know that dude is 70 years old, but have you seen pictures of him lately? No. He is jacked. So he has all these tattoos on him now, and they look like, I don't know, it looks like the Prison Break TV show. He has all these hieroglyphics on his body.

29:47
It looks like he's ready to like break someone out of prison, but the dude is 70 and he is, is yoked. If look a picture, listeners right now, look at a picture of Danny Elfman or go to his Instagram. The dude is jacked and he's 70 years old. Holy shit. Motherfucker looks like carrot top or something. Like that's Danny Elfman. That's the lead singer of Oingo Boingo. God, I used to think of him as like this music nerdy guy, but I got to get to the gym.

30:17
One thing about this movie is just the pop culture influence it had. I mean, there were so many merchandise, t-shirts, watches, the awesome action figures, utility belts, masks, Halloween costumes, video games, the Super Nintendo games, the NES games, like whatever they could slap Batman on as kids, we wanted it all. And it was, it was just awesome because

30:42
At that time, you know, Batman was like really associated with like Adam West. And, you know, there were the comic books were really cool, but it was like dark and gritty and it was different, you know? Oh, yeah. It just had a huge juggernaut of effect of pop culture. It was amazing. I think it really just showed Hollywood how lucrative these properties could be, because you're right. Like they sold so many like happy meals based off of this. Yeah. And of course, that kind of.

31:08
bit them in the ass for Batman Returns when parents got upset by how scary the movie was and returned their Happy Meal toys. But yeah, no, it made so much money for the studio. In terms of merchandise, I feel like I probably peaked at age 8 in terms of coolness because I had this really cool black jean jacket with the Batman 1989 logo on the back. It's probably hands down the-

31:34
coolest item of clothing I've ever owned. That is cool. It was a cool jacket for sure. Joseph had one too. Oh, I was about to say, why did you have it? And Joe did it, okay. They always dressed us up like twins when we were little. So yeah, we had to have two of everything. That makes sense. I mean, I didn't like wearing it. No, that's a lie. You wore it all the time. You know what? And that jacket's probably $8,000 now. Dude, yes.

31:59
I never know what happens to like items of clothing like that or just things that you had as a kid like toys are worth thousands right now. It's ridiculous. Someone should have told us! Moving on to the character breakdown. Batman slash Bruce Wayne is played by Michael Keaton, who for a lot of people is their favorite Batman. You know, like you mentioned Max, we're spoiled nowadays with how many superhero films we get. So...

32:24
A number of actors have played Batman on film since Michael Keaton's first turn as the character. And while I wouldn't say he's my favorite actor to play the role, he does do a damn good job. I would say he's definitely the scariest Batman to date. Yeah, and what's crazy is at this point, Michael Keaton was just in comedies. So he was known as a comedic actor. I mean, Mr. Mom, you know, does it does not hold up well in 2023. But that was the kind of roles he was in.

32:52
And to have him, I don't know what the equivalent it would be. It's like when Chris Pratt became Star-Lord. Or like when Ryan Reynolds became Hannibal King and then Deadpool. Yeah. But those actors really leaned into the comedy. Michael Keaton didn't. You know, you could tell he was holding back in his comedy with all his eyebrows raising and things like that. But other than that, for the most part, it is a serious performance. I mean, he knocks it out of the park. Yeah. Apparently, like, you know, I've heard

33:21
years later that when he was first announced as Bruce Wayne, fans rioted, apparently, because of his past roles as a comedian. They didn't see him as the character. Yeah, Michael Keaton previously worked with Tim Burton on Beetlejuice, and I think that was what got him the role. Just Tim Burton saw that he had this intensity to him. Yeah, that came out in 88, I believe. So I'm sure Tim Burton's like, hey, I need a Bruce Wayne. You're perfect for the role, dude.

33:52
Right. Yeah, seriously, who looks at Beetlejuice and is like, that's Batman. He knew that Michael Keaton could get nuts. That's what it was. Perfect. That was so good. Absolutely. Now, Burton's Batman films have often been accused of focusing more on the villain than the hero. And I guess I would agree with that. You know, this first film wasn't an origin story for Batman, though we do get a glimpse of the death of his parents that inspired him to don the bat suit.

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It was really an origin story for the Joker, so for a majority of the film, Batman is simply reacting to the Joker. And I guess, you know, in that sense, he doesn't have much agency as a character. Close to the end of the movie, Bruce realizes that Jack and Apear was the one who killed his parents. And while I don't love that twist, it does give Bruce a personal arc for the film, a revenge mission of sorts. Though I wouldn't say it's as cathartic or satisfying.

34:49
as most revenge tales are. I love it because Batman's made by Joker. Joker's made by Batman. And it becomes this like connection where one's origin cannot be separated. And I know that that is, you know, not true to the comics or anything like that. But I think for this time period, 1989, where it's actually a risk to make a superhero movie, I think it just works. I think, yeah, it definitely works in this film. I don't know if I love the idea of an

35:19
origin story for the Joker. What are you talking about? You like to the Joker movie starring Joaquin Phoenix. That's fair. It's Joaquin Phoenix. Yeah, that's true. But, you know, I still love the Heath Ledger version of the Joker, where he tells so many different stories about his origin, and you're not sure which one is the right one. He's a mystery, right? And therefore he's a little bit more sinister because you don't know what he truly is or why he truly is, essentially. Here in this movie, it very much follows the killing joke.

35:48
and that the Joker was a product of Batman dropping Kim into a vat of chemicals, which isn't a bad thing. The Killing Joke is a great story. You know, it was written by Alan Moore and Tim Burton has said, you know, it was like the first comic that he ever fell in love with. So this variation from The Killing Joke on this film is pretty evident. I think when you look at Jack Nicholson's performance in Heath Ledger, I think the reason why you could build a origin movie around it is because of how big of a personality Jack Nicholson is.

36:18
And like Heath Ledger, he steals the show because he's kind of creepy. He's not going to steal the show by being the biggest personality in the movie. He steals the show because it's really a realistic performance. Jack Nicholson. The reason why that works is because his performance is outside of reality. He's nuts. And I think that's why it works. And I don't know. I just I kind of liked it. And it's what I've known. And it's hard to see this movie not being around.

36:47
Jack Nicholson in particular because his performance is not as gritty as Heath Ledger, but it's so entertaining, dude. Oh yeah, very entertaining. The most entertaining, absolutely. Yeah, I think Jack Nicholson's cartoony performance was heavily inspired by Cesar Romero's performance who played the Joker in the Batman 1960s television show. Probably. They're both just kind of wacky, but it's interesting how Michael Kean's Bruce Wayne and Batman is very much the opposite.

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of Adam West's Batman, where Michael Keaton is very serious and stern. In that regard, I think Keaton's Batman nicely balances Nicholson's crazy Joker. Yeah, absolutely well balanced. Michael Keaton's Bruce Wayne is a great foil for Jack Nicholson's Joker, absolutely. But going back to Bruce Wayne, I've seen complaints from fans that we don't get to see the detective side of Batman too much on screen.

37:39
But rewatching this film again for this review, I'd forgotten how much research and detective work Bruce Wayne actually does here. You know, like he spies on Commissioner Gordon with his surveillance equipment in his house. He cracks the Joker's venom formula and he even solves the cold case of his parents' murder. I'd argue this film may be the best example of Batman as the Dark Knight detective, other than maybe like the Batman. No, no way, Pattinson's Batman sucked at being a detective.

38:09
The realer was always like 10 steps ahead of him. I'm still waiting for a Batman movie to be an actual detective movie. I thought that's what we got with the Batman. I mean, he was following the the I'm not going to defend this movie. Everyone shits on it. I'm like, it's great. It's the best. It's it's seven. It's always what I've always wanted. But no, I I think you're wrong, Joseph. OK, I can be wrong, too. You can say I'm wrong. One thing I want to talk about with Bruce Wayne is

38:39
the bat suit. I freaking love Keaton's bat suit. Like of all of Batman's bat suits on screen, his clearly cuts like the best silhouette. And that's important for the character, I feel like his suit, like really pioneered the whole like sculpted musculature that's on a lot of superhero suits that came later on. I think it's my second favorite bat suit after Affleck's, but the cowl is my favorite for sure, with like its tall ears.

39:07
And I also love like the yellow chest emblem. It's not exactly like how it's shown on the movie poster. It has a few more wing scallops in this movie, but it's still striking. Yeah. Prior to this movie, superhero costumes were largely represented via tights in live action. You know, think Adam West's Batman, Christopher Reeve's Superman. This movie did away with the tights and the costume is all the more badass for that. Oh, yeah. It looks awesome. Just on screen.

39:33
Anytime it's the Batman, especially like at the end where you got that shot or it's the Bat signal and he's there in the silhouette. Yeah. When I think of Batman, whether it's the animated series, comic books, movies, I think of this costume. Like, this is just so iconic and it doesn't have nipples. So that's a plus as well. Absolutely abs, but no nipples. His Batmobile has nipples, but he doesn't have nipples on his suit.

40:04
I feel like I'll never be able to look at Keaton's Batmobile the same way ever again. You're welcome. I know, right? Yeah. I guess the one drawback to Keaton's suit, of course, is that the guy can't turn his head and it's almost comically evident when watching the film. Yeah, it's all because of how Batman's silhouette that he strikes the way it looks like his head goes right down into his shoulders. He has no neck and so therefore he can't move it.

40:30
And you really see it in the scene when he's with Vicky in the Batcave, where he's walking all around her and he can't move his neck. I might ruin that scene for you guys. I'm sorry. But if you look at it, it's freaking hilarious because Michael Keaton is moving his body, but he is not moving his head. I also noticed it like right when he drops Joker to the vent of chemicals and then like the two police officers are coming up the walkway on either side of him. And you're like, instead of like.

40:59
turning his neck to like look at both of them. He has to turn his whole body even to like look down and look up. He's like moving his entire torso like he's like an action figure with like no articulation in the neck area. It seems a bit problematic to have that restriction in your superhero costume. Definitely, definitely problematic. This is not a martial artist, Batman, by any means. I want the next.

41:24
Batman video game like the Arkham series. I want there to be a mode where it's 1989 mode and you can't move the controller. You can only move once one stick. You can't use the other stick. Well, most Batman actors have had this problem, right? Even Christian Bale's Batman could have moved his head, although I think they fixed that in the sequel. Yeah, it was the Dark Knight didn't have the issue. And then Affleck's cowl in BVS didn't have the issue either.

41:52
But it came back for Justice League, it's weird. Moving on to The Joker, AKA Jack Napier, he's played by Jack Nicholson, who I'd argue plays the most iconic version of The Joker on screen to date. We've sort of talked about this. We all love Heath Ledger's performance, but when I think of The Joker, I pretty much think of Jack Nicholson. He was just so vicious and scary, yet theatrical and legitimately funny in some moments. And his look.

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straight from the comics, like down to the green widow's peak in the purple suit. His disfigured smile, too, is like so unnerving and the makeup on it is incredible. It looks like his face is really deformed. I think, you know, Jack Nicholson, he nails it. I mean, the last 30 years, Jack Nicholson is not the name that he was at 1989. Like the dude was just dominating Hollywood. In fact.

42:48
He took home around 60 million dollars because he received a percentage of the gross of the film, which 60 million dollars in 1989 turned out to be like 143 million dollars in today's, you know, content. So the dude, he's got four seats to the Laker games. That costs money, baby. So, uh, he had to be the joker to, you know, fix his NBA courtside addiction.

43:14
He deserved it too, honestly. He put everything into this role it looks like. He gave it his all. The Joker's arc is definitely rooted in vengeance. He gets revenge on Eckhart for disrespecting him, Grissom for setting him up, he gets revenge on the mob bosses for trying to betray him, he tries to get revenge on Batman for disfiguring him, stealing his press, foiling his plans, and he tries to get revenge on Vicky Vail for rejecting his advances.

43:42
Ultimately though, he seems to really just be disgusted by Gotham City and wants to watch the world burn, you know? Maybe. I'm not quite sure what his ultimate motive for trying to destroy Gotham is, honestly, but the Joker is supposed to be crazy and unpredictable, so I don't think too much about it. Well, his motivation is that he fancies himself an artist, you know? He's homicidal and he sees, like, killing people as, you know, his medium. It's his art? That's messed up! That's evil.

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You forgot to mention that one of the people that the Joker got revenge against was Bob for forgetting to tell him that, you know, the Batplane had those balloon snatcher things. Poor Bob. Right? Damn. He was just loyal. That was his only crime. Just too loyal. This film, of course, gives us our only theatrical look at how deadly the Joker's gas is, which is kind of surprising since it's his trademark weapon in the comics. It's another reason why I think this Joker feels so iconic.

44:40
And we also see the Joker's poison spraying boutonniere too. That's right. Yeah, imagine if like Heath Ledger had like a acid spitting flower lapel. Just would have been weird. Oh, one thing that always takes me out of this movie, though, and out of Jack Nicholson's portrayal of the Joker is watching him dance to Prince music. There's just something off about it. For as good as, you know, Danny Elfman's score is in this movie. Like, there's also a lot of Prince music.

45:09
I used to not love it, but the more I listen to Prince, it kind of grows on me. It does date the film horribly, I will say. I think you're in two camps. You either love it and you're nostalgic about it or you just hate it. And you're like, this doesn't make sense because at the time, I think it was a pretty popular song in that whole soundtrack. Right. And the music video is awesome, too. And you have I think Prince is dressed up like the Joker and dancing around and things like that, which was really hilarious. Yeah. Check it out. The music video is funny.

45:38
But yeah, I think if well, we're always just accustomed to certain superhero movies, things, and Prince is very stylistic. And, you know, he's not going to do something like seal, right? Like he's going to be Prince. Bear, yeah, I thought it was cool that he did it in general. I mean, I wonder how big of a Batman fan he is because he did a lot of songs for it. Personally, I'll say that.

46:04
I am a fan of Prince's music. I think he was a brilliant musician, but I don't think that his style of music necessarily fit the dark foreboding atmosphere of Tim Burton's Gotham City or the character of Batman in general. Totally, totally fair. And it's too bad because I feel like the film started out with a fairly like modern neo-noir feel to it. But once you get that first Prince song when the Joker and his goons

46:34
dancing around like a bunch of idiots, desecrating a bunch of works of art. It almost feels like the tone completely changes and the film kind of jumps the shark. Yeah, too bad Danny Elfman wasn't part of Oingo Boingo at that point anymore. They already broke up because that would have been kind of cool to put Oingo Boingo stuff in there. And I know that's like kind of dated too, but I think it would have fit that environment a little bit more than Prince. Yeah, I could see that for sure. Moving on to Vicky Vale, she's played by

47:02
Kim Basinger, who's a fantastic actress. She of course plays the damsel in distress in this film, but she's also a highly capable detective in her own right and a photographer. Her character was originally based on Silver St. Cloud from the comics, one of Bruce Wayne's love interests who worked for the mobster Rupert Thorne. This film's screenwriter, Sam Ham, decided to change Silver to Vicky and Thorne to Grissom, though I'm not sure why. Thinking of her as Silver St. Cloud,

47:32
just makes me appreciate her character even more. Do you guys like the love connection there? Is it needed? Do we need to humanize Bruce with this love romance? I would love to hear your thoughts on that. I think their relationship is bizarre and very stalkery. Like the way they just obsess over each other and like spy on each other, it's weird. It's like no wonder it didn't work out. Well, I remember her stalking him.

48:00
like following him and photographing him and looking into his background and stuff like that, all because she was pissed at him because she figured out that he blew her off after they slept together. But Vicky was throwing up all kinds of red flags. She was like a stage five clinger. Well, the other thing is like, and it's always hard for me to watch it, but we know that Vicky is drunk as they're heading to bed. We don't know if Bruce is drunk, right? Like.

48:29
Right. Well, I thought he was drunk because wasn't he like super hung over the next morning? OK. I just thought it's because he was hanging upside down all freaking night exercising or I don't know what he was doing there. It was it was weird. What's weird is Vicky was like turned on by that. She's like she saw that in the corner and was like, no, all checks out. That's normal. Cool. There's nothing weird about this at all. I can't wait for our second date. This is awesome. The whole issue of them sleeping together is definitely

48:58
problematic and you don't even realize it as a kid watching this. There's so much stuff in this movie that went over my head when I was a kid. Like that's like the affair between Jack Napier and Grissom's girlfriend. I didn't know what was going on at all, but watching it now, it's definitely it's cringe for sure. Oh, yeah, totally. Like we had no idea half the stuff that was going on in this movie. I feel like Jack Nicholson having an affair with Grissom's girl made no sense to me. Like when Jack told her.

49:27
He would have handed the reporter his lungs if he could touch Grissom. And then she's like, if Grissom knew about us, he might hand you something. I'm like, OK, lady. And then there's that one joke where Knox first meets Vicky Vale. And he's like, if you want to take photos of me nude, you're going to need a long lens. And as a kid, I was like, yeah, sure. And I don't know what this means. Now, Sean Young was originally cast as Vicky Vale, though I guess she was injured in a horse riding accident like.

49:56
days before filming started. Michelle Pfeiffer was actually considered for the role of Vicki Vail. But I guess Michael Keaton objected because he had been in a romantic relationship with her and didn't want to work with her. I'm not sure what happened between this movie and Batman Returns, but I guess they reconciled. Maybe he just wanted to see her in that catwoman outfit, dude. That's fair. I buy that. That. Yeah, totally.

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Now, Vicky is drawn to Gotham by reporter Alexander Knox's stories on the urban legend of Batman. She teams up with him, but it's not long after that she becomes obsessed with Bruce Wayne. Like I mentioned, stalker obsessed. She gets caught up in helping Batman stop the Joker's plans when the Joker takes a fancy to her by delivering Batman's research to the press. Despite her help, Bruce Wayne really wants nothing to do with her after sleeping with her, like you mentioned, Joseph.

50:51
which is unfortunate. Alfred likes her though, going so far as to reveal Bruce's secret to her when he lets her into the bat cave, which is pretty controversial. He broke the bro code. Right? Now, if I was Bruce Wayne, that would have been Alfred's last day on the job. I don't care if that guy raised me. You don't do that. He's like, dude, there's a reason why we didn't have a second date. What are you doing? I would have been like, what the hell, Alfred? Bats before cats, brah.

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You

51:24
That's good. I guess, like, when this film was filming, it was during another writer strike, like we have going on right now. And it was Tim Burton's last minute decisions to let Alfred let Vicky Vale into the Bat Cave and also to have Joker be the killer of Batman's parents. So I think a lot of the controversy within this film that fans, you know, can get upset about are because of Tim Burton's last minute choices.

51:51
Now, by the end of the film, Vicky decides to break off her partnership with Knox in order to protect Bruce. Though I guess they don't actually, as I mentioned, end up together in the end. Which is interesting because you think that with the information that Vicky knew about Bruce Wayne's superhero alter ego, she could have used that information to kind of like blackmail him into a relationship, you know? Why didn't she do that? That's a good point. That's a really good point. Well, in the comics, Silver St. Cloud realized who...

52:20
Bruce Wayne was that he was Batman. It's not really an issue. There's there's a few people who know they just keep it to themselves. It does make me wonder, though, you know, since Alfred is just freaking going rogue in this movie, if like he just picked up Vicky Vail on a whim like Bruce didn't even know that he was picking crop and the Bruce is going to go home and be like, Oh, hey, Vicky fucking Alfred. Oh, shit, you went a completely different direction with that than I thought you were going to. I thought you were going to say that Alfred picked Vicky up.

52:49
without Bruce's knowledge to offer because he knew because she knows about Bruce's secret. Wait, what? And maybe that's why we don't hear from Vicky again. Damn. Off to Arkham we go.

53:01
No one's gonna believe you. That's my head cannon now. Alfred took Vicky Vale to Arkham in order to protect Bruce from her and hide a secret from the world. Jeez.

53:19
Moving on to the story highlights. The film begins with the opening credits rolling as the camera cruises through the Batman logo to Danny Elfman's epic score. In the opening scene we see a small family turn down the wrong alley and get mugged by two goons. From the towering Gotham rooftops, Batman hears the mother of the family scream. Batman takes down both of the muggers on a rooftop, threatening to drop one of the muggers off the roof if he didn't tell other criminals about him.

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before Batman vanishes. After rewatching this movie after so long, this scene reminded me just how good Michael Keaton's Batman voice is. Yes. Yeah. It's almost like a tough whisper or something. It's very well done, though. Absolutely. It's one of the best, if not the best. So many things in this movie are the best. I keep saying that, but they just are. Well, the voice, you can't really mock it, right? He just nails it. It's not like Christian Bill, like Christian, you know, it's just like.

54:18
I can't even do Michael Keaton's Batman because it's just, I think it's authentic to him and it's authentic to the character. The only thing you make fun of him is like, you know, the let's get nuts scene, right? But other than that, you respect him as Batman. Right, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Batfleck's voice was a little bit of a cop out because it was digitized, but Christian Bale's voice sounded like he straight up had a throat cancer. Christian Bale sounded like your great aunt that you never wanted to visit. Always smoking.

54:47
Hey, honey! Ha ha!

54:51
It is a badass voice. Like he even used it in the Birdman movie, like for the character of Birdman. It's just it's just really cool. That's true. I guess the I'm Batman line wasn't scripted like Keaton improvised it. There were a number of lines that were apparently written like one was I am vengeance, another was I am the night. But I guess they didn't quite sound right to Keaton and Burton. So Bern was just like wing it. And Keaton came up with that.

55:19
I hope there's a take where he's like, not Bruce Wayne. Well, not Bruce Wayne. I love that by the start of this film, Batman as this mythic figure, this urban legend is already established. Like the Matt Reeves film also did a decent job of that, you know, having criminals tripping over themselves just by looking into shadows. But this film really depicted Batman as.

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this almost nightmarish force of nature right from the get go. When you see him descending on the rooftop, I'm like with the smoke and stuff. It's so cool. To the point where, you know, jokers, henchmen get him finally, and they kick him and they go, oh, he is human. Right. Yeah. There was even debate or there was, you know, this mythos about Batman that he was not even human, which is this awesome. And again, that's part of the world building that Tim Burton does. That's what it should be. That's absolutely what it should be.

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in the movies. Like you should not think of Batman as even like a real being. Like you should just think of him as the boogeyman, right? It was good. It was well done here. During a televised press event, Mayor Borg accuses mob boss Carl Grissom of being the source of Gotham City's crime and corruption before introducing the new district attorney Harvey Dent. Carl's right-hand man, the gangster Jack Napier, watches the press event on television with Carl's girlfriend.

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whom Jack reassures that Carl knows nothing of their affair. Now, as I mentioned, as a child, I had no clue what was going on here, not about the affair, but also not about Harvey frickin Dent. I didn't know he was Two-Face until much later in life. When I saw Billy Dee Williams, I was like, he kind of looks old back then. I was like, how old is this guy? And I looked up he's 86. And I was just like, my mind was blown because I was like, I don't know.

57:13
Billy D Williams just looks like the same. Not that he looked old, but I just feel like he's looked 40 for like the last 40 years. You know what I mean? Totally. Absolutely. It's interesting to think that there's a universe out there where Billy D Williams stayed on as the character of Harvey Dent and became Two-Face in the Batman Forever movie acting alongside Jim Carrey. I think it would have been awesome. Like the way that he burns his face is, you know, he's drinking too much Colt 45 and catches on fire. General's chicken.

57:44
Now, can you imagine what Tim Burton's two-face would have looked like? I bet it would have been really cool looking. It would have been awesome. Now, as the police bring in the muggers that Batman brought down, newspaper reporter Alexander Knox arrives at the scene and tries to get answers from Lieutenant Eckhart, who dismissed him and leaves to meet Jack, who bribes him to help prevent Harvey Dent from snooping into Access Chemicals, one of Grissom's front companies. The next day, the mayor speaks with Harvey and Commissioner James Gordon,

58:14
about the financial troubles facing Gotham's upcoming 200th anniversary parade. At the Gotham Globe, Knox meets photographer Vicky Vail, who's interested in his new stories on Batman, and the two decide to attend Bruce Wayne's charity gala so they can ask Commissioner Gordon and Gotham City's other officials about Batman. The guy who plays Lieutenant Eckhart, I guess he was also one of the Roe Squadron actors from the Star Wars movies?

58:42
I haven't really seen him in anything else, but his voice is so distinct. Wait, that's not Porkins. It is Porkins! It is. Dude, it's freaking Porkins! Oh my gosh! Holy shit, I had no idea that that was Porkins. Me neither. Holy crap. Makes sense though. I have a Porkins action figure. I love Porkins. Well, now we got to see some kind of mashup where somebody takes Detective Eckhart and puts him back into the movie, flying alongside the Batplane in that kind of trench run.

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that Batman does between the Gotham City skyscrapers trying to shoot the Joker. That'd be awesome. Moving on to the next scene, as Grissom surmises that if Harvey Dent makes a connection between himself and Axis Chemicals he's done for, Jack suggests they loot the chemical plant before police can find anything and call it industrial espionage. Grissom, who's aware of the affair between Jack and his girlfriend, agrees to Jack's plan.

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but insists Jack lead the operation before informing Lieutenant Eckhart of their plan. At the charity gala at Wayne Manor, Bruce Wayne meets Vicky and Knox before using surveillance equipment to learn that Commissioner Gordon has received a tip about what's going down at Access Chemicals. One of the more interesting things about the scene where Knox and Vicky are walking down

01:00:05
Bruce's past with like traveling the world and like his fascination with warriors and their costumes and stuff like that, because like we never got to see like the Batman Began story of this version of Batman. You know, we didn't get any inclination of his training beyond this, but it was cool because like Bruce points out that Japanese samurai armor and he's like, oh, it's Japanese because I bought it in Japan. Just thought that lended some like subtle insight into the character. Dude, that's brilliant. I never even thought of that. That's.

01:00:34
My mind is now blown. I actually loved seeing those armor figures in the flash film again. I thought that was really cool. I was like, oh, look, it's King of the Wicker people. Now at Access Chemicals, Jack realizes he's been set up just as the police arrive. As Jack cranks up the chemical production to throw off the authorities, Commissioner Gordon and Batman arrive, the latter of whom brings down the gangsters one at a time. After killing Eckhart, Jack attempts to assassinate Gordon.

01:01:02
But Batman stops him before accidentally dropping Jack into a vat of chemicals. Batman escapes before the police can take him into custody, after which Jack's burned hand emerges from the chemical vat. Every time I see the transformed Joker face, I always just think about how uncomfortable those facial prosthetics must have been for Jack Nicholson. Just to have this permanent smile. For sure, but I think it's part of the job. I'm sure wearing the bat suit wasn't comfortable either. That's true. Yeah, yeah.

01:01:32
I do it. Whatever you want on my face. Exactly. Bruce has a date with Vicky Vale at his manor and the two end up sleeping together. Meanwhile, Jack has surgery done to repair the acid burns, though the surgery goes horribly wrong. Jack confronts and kills Grissom for setting him up, declaring that Jack is dead and he is the Joker as he reveals his distorted smiling appearance.

01:02:02
Now the scenes of the Joker and the surgeon's chair and him encountering Grissom in the shadows haunted me as a child. Like especially seeing his barely visible face in the dark shadows, just holding the gun, freaky. Yeah, this is where you see Tim Burton's horror influence in this movie. It gave you the willies as a kid. Like there's certain moments in this movie in Batman Returns where you just get scared because of the performances.

01:02:31
of these villains and that scene in particular, the atmosphere, the action and just the performance, it was all just awesome. It's a 10 out of 10 scene. For sure. I definitely remember as a kid being so scared by just certain random parts of this movie, specifically with this scene where the Joker's like, ooh, boop, boop, where do they get a load of me? And then he starts laughing. There was just something about the way he made those sounds

01:03:01
made me close my eyes and ears as a kid. I don't know why, but it just got to me. I didn't know that scene right there. That's just like Jack Nicholson riffing, because there's no way that was scripted. No, there's a lot of rifting that Jack Nicholson does and to the betterment of this movie. Because I feel like with something like The Joker, I mean, look at Heath Ledger, he went method. And you almost have to do that with a character that's so detached from reality and humanity.

01:03:30
It's like you have to just fully put yourself into it or else it just comes off, I don't know, cliche or corny. Yeah, that's very true. The following morning, Vicky becomes suspicious of Bruce when she deduces he's lying to her about leaving town. Joker meets with the other heads of the crime families to let them know that he's taking over Grissom's operations and plans on destroying Gotham City, killing one of them when he disagrees. Now, I love the mob meeting scene here.

01:03:58
I love how the Joker wears flesh-colored makeup to hide his white skin, only for him to start removing it as the mob realizes how crazy he is, like his mask is revealed. There was a scene similar to this in The Dark Knight when Heath Ledger's Joker explains to a mobster that Gotham deserves a better class of criminal, not just a mobster, but a freakish supervillain. And that's in keeping with the comics too.

01:04:25
the long Halloween where Batman helps bring down organized crime only for the power vacuum to be filled by supervillains. And I always think scenes like this help bring the legitimacy of your main villain because you have all of these mobsters who are afraid of Joker at this point. Yeah. And as the audience, you're like, all right, you know, he's someone that you have to fear because he's insane. If all these bad dudes are scared of the Joker, I'm terrified of them. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

01:04:54
It was like almost as bad as like the face melting in Red Ritz of the Lost Ark to me, like when I was a little kid. It was scary. Now after Vicky stalks Bruce and watches while he leaves roses in an alleyway, the two find themselves at City Hall, where the Joker murders one of the mob heads and his men in public, while one of his own goons, Bob the goon, photographs the chaos. While watching the press coverage,

01:05:20
The Joker becomes frustrated when Batman becomes the topic of conversation, and Bruce reveals to Alfred that Jack Napier, as the Joker, is still alive and begins to research him. As Vicky does her own research into Bruce, Joker discovers Vicky in photographs from the City Hall Massacre and falls in love with her. I had forgotten how great of a scene this was, you know, with the mimes and the Joker's get up and everything like that, and plus it was just so hardcore, like, the Joker by this point has killed

01:05:49
already quite a few people in this film. And the way he killed this other mob boss guy by stabbing him in the neck with a pin. So sinister and just like the Joker. Yeah, the mimes were great in this. That's something I had forgotten recently, too. Just like the mimes everywhere that all of a sudden pull out machine guns and just start like shooting people. It's crazy. The one thing about the scene that I always just trip out about, especially watching it this time, was that you see the fearlessness and kind of the.

01:06:17
bewilderment that Bruce Wayne has is so much that he gets shot in the shoulder. He doesn't even notice. Right. I was like, wait, what? Right. What happened there? He just got shot. I was like, dude, Batman is bad ass. Like he just doesn't care. He's just like, who's this dude rolling up to my city and trying to get my girl, you know, like, uh, I'm not playing that. Well, I have a question about that. Like, was he wearing body armor? Did he actually get shot?

01:06:45
Like does he always wear his suit underneath his clothes? There's no way, right? I don't know, I think he got shot. I think he was just so focused and shocked at seeing this guy who highly resembled Jack Napier, a guy who he dropped in chemicals. It must've been super surprising to see him back from the dead, allegedly. Yeah. Now when Joker gets upset at the press coverage of the massacre, I don't know why, but as a little kid, I thought the...

01:07:11
This town needs an enema line by the Joker was the funniest thing in the world. I remember like any time I heard about something bad happening to the news, I'd be like, this town needs an enema. That's awesome. Yeah. Speaking of sayings when he saw Vicky Vail's photo and like became infatuated, I never knew what he meant when he said I'm of a mind to make some Mookie. And actually I still don't know what that means. Like it was that 80s sling or something. I don't know. Who's to say.

01:07:39
They didn't have an urban dictionary back then. Is it like Limp Bizkit? Like, does Mookie mean like the same thing as like Nookie or something? Turn off of the Mookie. What? The Mookie. That needs to be on YouTube now. Just the Joker singing that someone's got to do it. Someone will. It's the Internet. Now, access chemicals. Joker begins adding deadly chemicals to ordinary cosmetic goods, which was revealed during a news broadcast after a news anchor dies laughing live on the air.

01:08:06
As Bruce tries to uncover Joker's chemical formula to save Gotham, Vicky meets Joker for dinner at an art gallery under the assumption that she was meeting Bruce. After vandalizing the artwork, the Joker becomes more and more sinister. Batman crashes through the gallery's roof windows and rescues Vicky, escaping together in the Batmobile. After stopping to defeat Joker's goons, Batman takes Vicky to the Batcave, where he gives her information on the Joker's formula to give to the press.

01:08:34
and he takes a roll of film from her, she tried to hide that contained pictures she had taken of him. It's always funny when I watch this movie, because I always forget it's in there, but when they go to the newscasters or the anchors and they have no makeup, they got pimples on and stuff like that, it's so subtle, but it's so funny to me, because it's just something that you're not used to seeing. And I just think that humor's just great. I think.

01:09:02
that the scene where the Joker like reveals his white face to Vicky Vail and is like, boo, and starts laughing. And then you have Batman crashing through the ceiling and then grappling with Vicky to the door. And Joker's like, where does he get those wonderful toys? For me, that's the best moment of this entire film. On top of the I'm melting, I'm melting. Right. Like he's totally messing with her. And then it's just fantastic. You just see how psychotic the Joker is and how much of a movie buff he is.

01:09:33
Yeah, the music during that scene totally, totally makes it just everything just works so well together for it. I agree. It's definitely one of the best scenes of superhero movies ever. It's the best. Joseph, you mentioned that there were some scenes that you would close your eyes at when you were watching this as a kid. For me, that scene is the reveal of the news anchor ladies, like disfigured face of her smiling. That was terrifying as a kid. Oh, yeah, yeah, there's just something so.

01:10:01
creepy about the concept of someone who's dead but like smiling. It's no, they made an entire horror movie about it called Smile. Oh, shit. Yeah, I'm not watching that movie. No, thank you. Now, we've mentioned how great the Batmobile is in this movie. I would also say that this film has the best version of the Batcave on screen as well. Like it's just this dark, mysterious cavern with vault doors and computer screens. It's exactly what it should be like in my mind.

01:10:30
And I think that's so interesting because it's from 1989, right? You don't have all the CG where you can put a giant dinosaur in the background or you can make it look all aesthetic and things like that. But everything is on set again, Matt painting or Styrofoam settings and things like that. Like it just works. It just works. Practicals will always just work. I actually think it's better in this movie than it was in the flash, because I think that Batcave was sort of a melding between this one

01:11:00
and the one from the Nolan films with like the waterfall. I just like this one more. It's the best. Yeah. And that was actually one of the things that was disappointing for me was that Batcave didn't resemble the one from 1989. Yeah. And I thought they had an opportunity to kind of give homage a little bit to that. And I was actually going into that movie expecting that. So, you know, it didn't ruin anything, but I was just like, oh, that was kind of a missed opportunity there. Well, the platform that the Batmobile was on was the same, but

01:11:29
That was pretty much it, I think. Now, encouraged by Alfred, Bruce meets Vicky at her apartment to tell her he's Batman. But before he can, the Joker shows up with his goons and begins to harass Vicky. When Bruce attempts to defend her, he's shot by the Joker, who leaves shortly after. Vicky later learns from Knox that Bruce witnessed the death of his parents as a child. When Mayor Borg announces the postponement of the parade,

01:11:54
Joker hijacks the television feed and promises to dump $20 million in cash into the streets of Gotham while also challenging Batman to a fight. Bruce recognizes Joker as the man who killed his parents and after speaking with Vicky in the Batcave, he suits up to face the Joker. I always thought the let's get nuts scene was like a total badass power move on behalf of Bruce Wayne. Although the Joker did shoot him for it. Yeah, I always thought about, well, what happened?

01:12:21
If Bruce Wayne got shot in the face. Well, that was a risk he was willing to take. That had to have been inspired by Batman. It just had to. Dumb and dumber. Yeah. When I see that scene, I always think, is this Bruce Wayne just stripped down trying to, you know, fight or is he putting on an act? Right. Like that.

01:12:50
Like, I don't know. I really don't. I've watched this movie so many times and I can never land on an answer. Like, is he acting tough or is he actually tough? And I think that makes this scene even better. Ooh, that's a great question. That is a good question. I have to assume that it was an act considering that he probably knew as Bruce Wayne he wouldn't be able to take out all of these guys with guns. And that's why he, you know, prepared himself by slipping the silver tray under his shirt.

01:13:18
knew he was going to get shot and so he was provoking them into doing that so that he could make his escape. I think actually being a badass and taking everybody on would just reveal too much about who he was, that he was actually Batman. I just like the fact that he's like ready to throw down with all these guys who have guns with you know a fireplace poker. It's like as Batman he needs a fireplace poker because that thing would do some damage. In the next scene though Batman blows up Axis Chemicals with a bomb from his Batmobile.

01:13:46
The Joker escapes unscathed in a helicopter and holds his own parade in downtown Gotham City with money, balloons, floats, and Prince music filling the air. Once Batman arrives in his Batplane, Joker slowly emits the gas within his balloons which begins killing the Gotham citizens. Batman captures Joker's balloons with his Batplane and sets them loose high in the atmosphere.

01:14:13
then shoots down the bat plane with a huge gun in his pants. And I just got to ask, how does he walk around with that massive thing between his legs? You don't ask questions you don't want the answers to. Well, it's got to be telescopic, right? Because later on, as Joker is taking Vicky Vail up to the bell tower, he collapses and shortens the gun barrel. But you have to think that since it is telescopic, the size of the bullet that the gun would shoot would only be like the size of a BB. I have no idea.

01:14:42
how a telescopic barrel like that could take down an entire Batplane. What's always crazy to me about this scene is freaking Batman shooting people up. Like in the Batwing. I'm like, there hasn't been somebody getting shot by Batman. Like he's just out there like it's Grand Theft Auto V just like Batman take a chill pill, bro. Someone died, someone got hurt. Not to mention all the people he killed when he dropped those grenades at Axis Chemicals.

01:15:11
Yeah, that's right. All those guys died. He was killing people. Yeah. Yeah. I think he was trying to kill the Joker is what I think he was trying to do. He was just pissed off. But back to the gun in Joker's pants, like that's the one thing I wish they wouldn't have done in this movie is just make the Bat plane look extremely weak. I don't know if a Magnum would take down a plane, but I don't think it should take down at least the Bat plane. They had to find some way to get Batman out of the Bat wings, but.

01:15:39
And I think it's comical enough where it just works. You know, it was something that's like totally outlandish. It totally met the Joker. And why not? At this point, the end of the movie, we've seen so many ridiculous things. Why not? True. Now, Vicky, who was at the parade, is forced at gunpoint by the Joker to go with him up Gotham Cathedral. And Batman, who survived the plane crash, follows them up to the Belfry, defeating more of the Joker's goons along the way.

01:16:07
As Joker waits for his helicopter, Batman confronts him and nearly succeeds in knocking him from the top of the cathedral, but Joker surprises Batman and Vicky by pulling them down as well, leaving them dangling from a ledge as he dances above them. Joker leaves them dangling as he escapes in his helicopter, but Batman shoots a grapple line between Joker's leg and a gargoyle, and Joker falls to his death. After Batman grapples himself and Vicky to safety,

01:16:35
Commissioner Gordon finds the Joker dead at the base of the cathedral as an ominous laughing contraption from his pocket plays. One of my favorite lines from this movie is when the Joker and Vic you're dancing and he leans to her and says a story of beauty and the beast. Of course, if anyone else calls you a beast, I'll rip their lungs out. Like, it's so good. It's only Jack Nicholson's Joker who could pull off a line like that with this performance. Oh yeah.

01:17:04
This scene toward the end here was kind of confusing to me because the Joker was just dancing around up in the Belfry with Vicky Vale like Batman wasn't pursuing him. Like, did he not know that Batman was there fighting his goons? I don't think he knew that Batman survived the plane crash. That's just a guess. But I think it's a fair one considering, yeah, he is freaking dancing around. I also loved that line. It's one of the moments that gives evidence to the fact that this Joker is funny.

01:17:32
One thing I really didn't understand as a kid, either though, is like once Vicky sees Batman and she's like tries to start seducing the Joker, and then like she just like moves down on him. And I'm like, what is going on? As I'm watching this as an adult nowadays. It's cause she's B. Rabbit's mom. It's pretty risque that scene. Totally. Yeah. As a kid again, whoop, right over my head. Yeah, as a kid I was like.

01:18:00
Oh, she must be tired. You know, she's laying down now. Right. This whole match at the end, the fight between them isn't much of a fight. But I kind of love that about it, because like the Joker was never going to be like this formidable opponent for Batman. He does try and do like several gags, like with the cackling teeth. But I thought was great. But even then, like right after that, he loses the element of surprise because that punch just did nothing to Batman. At this point, Batman is just like so pissed off.

01:18:29
And he's just like in full tank mode. He's just ready to straight up kill the Joker. And the way that the Joker dies, like to have that much weight attached to your leg and you're just holding on for dear life. Like that stone has to be, I don't know, more than 50 pounds. Right. A lot more. A lot more. Right. Like, yeah, we don't know what it could be. Granted, it could be marble. It could be like stuff. We don't know. We just know that it's freaking heavy. And to have I was just like,

01:18:59
Picturing that like the amount of anxiety you would have just trying to hold on for dear life and you're just like, I'm dead. Right. I'm dead. No, even as a child, like that was traumatic. That was traumatizing. Just like the notion that just seeing the Joker's face that like, oh, shit, there's nothing I could do. He's just caught in this this trap, essentially. It was a hell of a way to go. Yeah. What he should have done was let go of the rope ladder before the gargoyle was dislodged from its base.

01:19:29
and he would have been dangling there and he would have gone into custody. But at least he wouldn't have suffered like one of the worst deaths possible. I mean, it is brutal, but also like it's not like he splattered on the sidewalk, which he should have been. It's just one of those haunting things that makes it even more bizarre and surreal. The fact that he was still fully intact and just like laughing with his eyes open and the smile on his face, it was so unnerving. Still to this day, it's unnerving.

01:19:58
At a press conference later, Commissioner Gordon and Harvey Dent assure the people of Gotham that the threat of the Joker is over and that Batman is there to protect them, unveiling the Bat-Signal. Vicky rides away with Alfred and we see Batman on Gotham's rooftops looking at the Bat-Signal shining in the sky. Such an iconic scene. I love that they ended this movie with the Bat-Signal. It's the best Bat-Signal.

01:20:24
Again, another one of the best things came from this movie. Previously, we were talking about why Vicky wasn't in the second movie. It's because she always has to wait on Bruce Wayne and as the movie's ending, like, oh, sorry, Mr. Wayne's going to be late 10 minutes. And, you know, women don't want that. They don't want to be waited upon, you know. So, you know, Bruce Wayne is not a good boyfriend. That's what it comes down to. I mean.

01:20:50
If he's going out every night as Batman, yeah, he definitely doesn't have time for a romantic interest. But yeah, that's the end of the movie. The film is so nostalgic for me personally. I think if I was reviewing this in, you know, like the early 90s when I was, you know, like five, I would have given it like five stars. There has been a lot of other great superhero films to come out since this and particularly Batman films like The Dark Knight.

01:21:19
and even, you know, like Joker. It's hard to review this film outside of the context of what's come since then, but overall I would say this is an iconic and enthralling vision of Batman's gothic world, from its characters to its sets and props with notable performances and powerful music. I'm giving it 4 out of 5 stars, a fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah, it was a really great film. I really like how it introduced a darker,

01:21:48
more comics accurate version of the Batman character to general audiences who were more largely used to Batman being like a kind of a comedic kind of dopey superhero character wearing tights from the Adam West show and everything. I think the influence cannot be understated especially for a lot of modern darker superhero type fare. I think you know like if I reviewed this film like 30 years ago it would probably be around four stars for me then I do.

01:22:15
think that with my more modern sensibilities and criticisms, I would give it three and a half stars because we gave Batman Returns three stars and I think that this is probably just a half star step up. There are no words how idiotic your rating is. Okay, all right. All right, well maybe I can break the tie breaker on this. Okay, so again, like what you were saying, Joseph, it is iconic, it was a pop culture phenomenon and it really...

01:22:44
was the catalyst for superhero movies. I said it earlier, but there is no MCU. There's no DC universe without this movie. And it's to the point where DC had problems with Ezra Miller and they have this movie and things. They're like, well, what's gonna kind of redeem this? It wasn't Christian Bale. It wasn't, you know, Val Kilmer. It was Michael Keaton's Batman because...

01:23:11
That is iconic and that's what people wanted to see. You know, the movie, yeah, is it dated? Yeah, but like for me, I feel like it's in its own universe where it being dated doesn't take you out of the movie minus maybe the Prince music. That would be like the only critique. But similar to Star Wars, hey, yeah, they have 70s looking hair and stuff, but it's its own universe. You can forgive that. And I feel like this movie, the style,

01:23:40
the craziness of Jack Nicholson, the performances, it's just a phenomenal movie and it holds up. I mean, there's still screenings all over, you know, LA where I'm from, but all over the nation for 1989's Batman. There's still releases of toys and of utility belts for this movie. You're not seeing that for Batman and Robin or you know, Batman Forever, or really even The Dark Knight. You're seeing it for 1989. I say all that just to say,

01:24:10
This is a really important movie for cinematic history, especially here in 2023. And because of that, I'm gonna give it a four out of five stars. Nice. See, Joseph, that's a rating. That's a real rating right there. That's a real man's rating. And that's coming from a full blown Marvel guy. I keep saying that, you know, as we were doing this review, that this movie had so many of the best things. Like it had the best.

01:24:39
Gotham. It had the best Batmobile, had the best, most comic accurate Joker at the very least. Best Alfred. We barely talked about Alfred. We did not even talk about Alfred. Yeah, best Alfred. Yeah, I could see that. I mean, he has pretty stiff competition from Michael Caine, but yeah, he's a damn good Alfred, iconic Alfred. I think what this film is somewhat lacking though and why it doesn't get a higher rating for me at the very least is that it doesn't have the best Batman, which it should.

01:25:08
since the film is all about Batman. It's more about the Joker, I would argue, and still a great film. I love this film, but that's why it's not like four and a half stars or even five. As influential as it is, there are some drawbacks to this movie. But yeah, I think that does it. Thank you so much, Max, for joining us on this review. Why don't you let people know where they can listen to Ready 2 Retro? Because they should.

01:25:33
Thank you so much for having me. It's a lot of fun. I'm a listener of this podcast, Dynamic Duel. I even chime in sometimes on the listeners things and all the discussions. So first and foremost, I'm just a fan of you guys. You can find us on all your favorite podcasting platforms. We're at Ready 2 Retro. Right now it is Jurassic June. So we're talking Jurassic Park. We're talking about 1994, The Flintstones, The Land Before Time.

01:26:00
and we have a special guest that's coming up that you're just gonna have to come over on our platforms and find out who that special guest is. But I'll just spoil, it's Flintstones related. Oh shit, definitely check out Ready 2 Retro, guys. You know what I just remembered we forgot to do? We did not give this movie the proper rating. It has to be the Ready 2 Retro style rating. So not stars, it has to be something from the movie. Yeah, a noun from the movie or something that was from the movie. So I'm giving this movie

01:26:30
three and a half boobs. What the Joker says out of five boobs. I will give this movie four out of five Batmobile nipples. And I think for your listeners, for your listeners, I will forever be the nipple guy. And you know what? I'm all right with it. I can't talk that. I know who I am. I'm going to give this movie four out of five.

01:26:59
illustrations by Bob Kane that appeared in this movie at the Gotham Globe. I forgot to mention that. Do you guys remember seeing that of like the bat in this suit? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bob Kane was originally supposed to make a cameo in this movie, but he got like sick the day they were going to film. So they had another guy come in. But that was his drawing. That's cool. Did not know that. That's pretty cool. All right. Well, thanks again, Max. It's always a joy to have you. And yeah, we'll be sure to get you on again at some point in the future when we review more.

01:27:28
of the nostalgic superhero films. Awesome. Would love to do it. All right. Well, that was a fun review. Max is always a great guy to hang out with and you should definitely listen to the Ready 2 Retro podcast if you haven't already. That's the numeral to Ready 2 Retro. But that does it for this review. Let us know what you thought by writing to us at dynamicduelpodcast.gmail.com or by visiting us on Instagram or Twitter. You can find links to all of our accounts by checking out our show notes.

01:27:55
or visiting our website at dynamicduel.com. And on our site, you could also find a link to our Patreon page where you can join our dynamic 2.0 tier and chat with us and fellow listeners. Our fantastic four tier, which gives you bonus content each month. Our X-Force tier that makes you an executive producer of this podcast. Or our newest tier that lets you join our Dynamike podcast network. If you can't join Patreon, you can still support the show by signing up for our e-newsletter also at dynamicduel.com.

01:28:22
Or you could also rate the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify, podchaser, or on our website. Our next episode is going to be a duel episode, tie into the Flash movie in which we got to see General Zod make a return. We're going to pit General Zod against the Sentry. Two solar power titans going up against each other. I think it's going to be quite the slugfest. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. But that does it for this episode. We want to give a big thanks to our executive producers, Ken Johnson, John Strosky.

01:28:51
Zachary Hepburn, Dustin Balcom, Miggy Mathen-Geehan, Brandon Estregard, Nathaniel Wagner, Levi Yeaton, Nick Abonto, Austin Waselowski, AJ Dunkerley, Scott Camacho, and Adam Spies for helping to make this podcast possible. And we'll talk to you guys next week. Up up and away, true believers. I'm Batman.