EPISODE 100: Justice League vs Avengers

[Music] hi and welcome to the dynamic to a podcast a weekly show where we review superhero films and debate the superiority between Marvel and DC by comparing their characters in stat based battle simulations I’m Johnny DC and I’m his twin brother marvelous Joe and Waldo episode 100 a 100th episode remaining achievement unlocked henceforth I will always think of my life in two categories before episode 100 and after episode 100 right because everything changes after exactly exactly many hours of recording and arguing with Jonathan but this will make it all worth it because in this episode we will be pitting the Justice League versus the Avengers it’s gonna be seven characters versus seven characters which is an insane amount of work yeah a lot of work went into nailing down the stats for each of these characters and it’s matrices of data that you have to compare right so we have already started preliminary work on comparing this data but we will go ahead and finish it during the course of this episode and present you guys with the winner between these two super teams of Marvel and DC yeah and we’ll reveal who exactly were using on these rosters once we get into the duel right before that there’s quite a bit of news this week we’re gonna be talking about sony’s announcement that they are doing a sequel and all-female spin-off for spider-man into the spider-verse a Blue Beetle is in the works with that Warner Brothers and a shang-chi film is in the works at Marvel Studios Netflix has cancelled daredevil right wait of a way to bring my buzz down yeah what are you doing 100 awesome timing thanks and maybe we will be talking about the Captain Marvel trailer it’s a release may be imminent or it may still be hours away we’re just waiting yeah if the trailer happens to drop during our recording of this episode we’re just gonna drop everything watch the trailer then come back and report to you guys our thoughts about it yes so feel free to skip around if you choose the chapter times are in the episode description yeah so you can listen to the topics that you want to hear but before we get into all of that we would like to officially announce the start of our third annual holiday our auction for charities now live this year we’re auctioning off art for of chip and Howard the Duck if you remember from previous years we have also auctioned off artwork for chip versus rocket racoon which was drawn for us by John Horsley the third and last year we auctioned off crypto versus throg by an artist named Paul Heaston this year’s artwork was drawn by Shannon V satvinder whom we met at Denver Comic Con and all the proceeds for this auction will be going to an organization called women helping women which focuses on crisis intervention and prevention advocacy for gender-based violence so it’s a fantastic cause that Shannon is super passionate about so please go ahead and visit tinyurl.com slash chimp duck and we will be posting that link in our show notes definitely check it out if you’re not a person who would typically buy artwork for themselves of these characters perhaps you know a big-time comic book fan who would appreciate having these this artwork and it would make a great gift right and go to a good cause everyone benefits every benefit we will be reminding you guys about the auction later on in this episode just so you don’t forget because it is a hugely important thing that we do every year yeah the auction it will be on eBay for charity and that only lasts one week right so in our next episode we will be announcing the auction winner correct that means the auction will be ending on December 10th so if you’re listening to this episode before December 10th 2018 remember to check out that link and we’d like to give a quick thank you to those who gave us iTunes reviews from the past week ravaged 51 and D Casper the ghost as we’ve mentioned earlier we’re trying to get to 200 ratings on iTunes specifically at which point we will meet all of the qualifications for our reviews of superhero films to go on Rotten Tomatoes and count towards that score yeah that’s a huge goal for us and we’d very much like to see that happen so if you guys have iTunes or Apple podcasts please rate us you leave a review too that’s always nice but yeah we’re trying to hit that 200 mark on the ratings we’re like 1/4 of the way there right now please don’t make our dreams come true and with that out of the way quick to the no prize [Music] so no prize is an award the marvel used to give out up until the 90s to fans our version the dynamic duel no prize is a digital award that we post on social media that Jonathan personally draws for those who we feel gave the best answer to our question of the week but if you may recall we did not ask a question of the week last episode yeah a few of you asked us about that and that was intentional for a variety of reasons right mainly because we want to give this episode’s no prize to all the listeners everyone every prize you get a no prize yeah you get an Oprah go ahead and visit us on social media for this week’s no prize drawing and it’s really cool Jonathan drew it up it’s the Avengers versus Justice League and it was a lot of fun to draw and don’t forget that each of one of these no prize illustrations ends up as a t-shirt in our merch store this one included yes so by a 100th episode of commemorative t-shirt because that would be awesome and also included in this no prize besides the drawing besides a t-shirt we also have another surprise for you guys we have redone many of our early episodes duel content yeah a lot of our older duel episodes those were garbage we decided to redo them for you guys yeah yeah a lot of those old episodes we hadn’t quite established what our format was yet for the duel episodes so what we’ve done is we’ve applied our current format before our duel episodes and applied it to those previous ones which means that we’re doing in depth of character BIOS and provides a speculative scenario and how we think a match between the two characters would go before we give the results of our simulations and the duel episodes that we’ve redone where Batman versus Moon Knight which was our second episode right Superman versus Doctor Doom Black Canary versus Black Widow dr. fate versus Doctor Strange blue beetle versus Spider Man Aquaman versus the Submariner Deadshot versus bullseye and etch again versus Ghost Rider oh my gosh it’s a lot it’s so much new content that you guys have to look forward to listen to and so all you people who have been like I’ve listed all of your episodes guess what no you have it again not anymore you have eight new duels waiting for you just go into those old episodes and then make sure you check the show notes to know what time code to skip to where the new bonus content starts right if you just start those episodes you’re gonna be like oh this sounds like the old episode but you basically have to skip to halfway through almost again it’s in the show nuts yeah definitely check those out because those were a lot of fun to record I think we did a really great job on them so surprised again hopefully this new content lives up to your guys’s expectations hopefully it was worth the wait yeah and congratulations to all of you guys for winning this episode’s no prize and we can’t thank you enough for being fans of the show and for listening to us yeah this all brings us to our question of the week all right this question of the week is a little bit self-serving absolutely but it is also a little bit of you know market research so we want to know what has been your favorite dynamic duel episode so far and why out of the 100 episodes which one did you like the best which one did you find the most entertaining yeah and why I have a favorite I’ll reveal that in our next episode when we get everybody else’s answers I’ll have to come up with a favorite but you can post your answer to our Instagram Twitter Facebook or email us a dynamic duel podcast at gmail.com we’ll pick our favorite answer whatever that one may be and draw that person a dynamic duel no prize that will post to social media I think our favorite answer will go to the person who’s able to best explain why the episode is their favorite I think yeah but now that we’ve got that over with on to the news [Music] so Sony has announced a sequel and an all-female spin-off of the spider-man into the spider-verse movie now that movie hasn’t come out yet but Sony is so pleased with how it’s doing with critics and they’re expecting it to do well with audiences so much that they’ve already greenlit these two additional movies it’s crazy it has like 100 percent on Rotten Tomatoes we’ll see if it stays there but yeah I’m really good yeah yeah definitely got my tickets already so the female spin-off movie I guess is going to star Spider Woman and spider-gwen from the into the spider-verse movie Spider Woman is Jessica Drew who is a character that was experimented on by the partner of the High Evolutionary in the comics and was given spider powers through experimentation basically spider-gwen is going Stacey from a different universe and in addition to these two characters people are speculating that the spin-off film will also include silk and Madame web silk was a character who was also bitten by the same rat radioactive spider that bit spider-man so a lot of great spider-man characters here including I think Spider Girl as well right yes Spider Girl is Mae Parker who is the daughter of Peter Parker and Mary Jane from an alternate universe so I mean there are so many great female spider-man characters yeah you could definitely make a movie out of it I was surprised that they were able to collect enough to like form a team yeah apparently Lorin Montgomery who helmed several DC animated films including Batman year one and Superman Batman apocalypse she is in talks to direct this movie you know I’ve seen both of those and I really liked Batman year one it was really well done as for the sequel to the into the spider-verse movie they’re looking at the director Joaquim dos Santos who directed Avatar The Last Airbender and the Voltron show that was on Netflix yeah the avatar cartoon continues to be like one of my favorite stories of all time they did a fantastic job with that so I’m really excited that he’s involved yeah this all sounds like great news to me especially since it’s expected that Phil Lord and Chris Miller will be returning in some kind of creative capacity probably producing as they did the spider-verse film yeah their involvement is key because anything they touch like animation wise is just gold yeah I really liked the lego movie and pretty sure I’m going to enjoy into the spider-verse like what people are saying is just insane like I read one review that said if you’re not a fan of spider-man this movie will absolutely change your mind and if you are a fan of spider-man this might be your favorite Marvel movie ever so geez I may be overhyping myself I I probably need to manage my expectations otherwise I may be slightly disappointed but either way can’t wait to review it in a couple of weeks right yeah I’m looking forward to I’m sure it’s gonna be good but you know who’s a better character than spider-man who know beetle they’re making a Blue Beetle movie Warner Brothers yeah that’s pretty crazy I haven’t heard anything about this until this past week yeah yeah it’s fairly recent news I remember they were talking about like a Blue Beetle and Booster Gold movie like you had a year ago and that was gonna be called blue and gold or something like that but yeah that was gonna be with a different blue beetle Ted Kord this movie is gonna focus on Jaime Reyes the new Blue Beetle you know whom you can learn all about in our duel episode blue beetle versus Spider Man which again is a redo low check that out yeah the films gonna be written by a Mexican born writer Gareth doneit alcone ser who wrote Universal Scarface I’m not too familiar with his work I haven’t seen that film but it’s good to have a Mexican writer for a Mexican character one of the few Mexican superheroes out there yeah I think they’re trying to kind of capture the magic of black panther mm-hmm oh yeah this would be a great character to do that with and also in a sense trying to capture the magic of venom which is doing insanely well still what’s the connection between Blue Beetle and venom well the power sets are kind of similar so we both have like these alien parasites that like sort of have their own personalities and help them manifest like different weapons and things like that although blue beetles parasite is more like techno magic based yeah so I think it’s different enough to not be considered like retread of venom but you sort of have those elements along with elements of you know a teenage superhero just Lanterman like spider-man right let me exactly exactly so I think they’re trying to capture all these different elements that have been successful for Marvel recently and create this project yeah it sounds like a pretty decent project to make into a film although you know we could just add it to the long list of undeveloped projects that DC has stated that they’re working on but that we haven’t seen any movement on within you know the past couple of years or so or like Nightwing or Batgirl right exactly um how dare you this is happening what are we surprised if this happened even before like a Green Lantern movie we need a Green Lantern movie we do we definitely need another we need another Superman movie we need the flash movie but I’m not upset that they’re doing Blue Beetle like at all he is a cool superhero with a really cool aesthetic and you know if Venom’s aesthetic can carry this film like Beyond Wonder Woman’s box-office the blue beetles can - I think are you saying that you think blue beetle looks cooler than venom because I would beg to differ I think he looks as cool as venom I was still beg to differ madam is the definition of badass yeah if your definition of badass is both bad and I think it will do well in the box office yeah okay moving on to the news that shang-chi film is in the works at Marvel Studios this is kind of a little bit of a bummer coming off of the news you know that the Iron Fist show has been cancelled yes because I’ve always liked Iron Fist more as a martial arts hero more than shang-chi mainly because you know shang-chi has never really had any superpowers until you know recently in the comics he recently developed the ability to replicate himself oh really yeah like multiple man yeah exactly like multiple man interesting so you know taking that away it’s possible that you can make a pretty interesting film in the vein of like the old Bruce Lee style kung fu movies like Game of Death or Fist of Fury or something like that there is definitely potential here because you have a couple of different genres at play here with a potential shang-chi film including espionage and of course martial arts so you know if we get something along the lines of like Enter the Dragon that actually sounds pretty cool to me but I don’t know how it would play a role in the larger Marvel Universe so it almost seems like a standalone movie mainly because it’s it’s largely devoid of any type of like superpower or fantasy elements yeah I don’t know too much about him but I mean you mentioned he has powers ultimately though I think iron fists power is more cinematic so to me this is exciting news I guess I think in the end I would rather have an iron fist movie like maybe they reboot the character into the cinema universe but you don’t know much about shang-chi essentially he’s the son of foo Manchu like the literary character yeah exactly yeah and and he is one of Marvel’s foremost martial artists is he better than Iron Fist hmm that’s a good question no I say but they’re about the same huh so would you see them casting as shang-chi ideally it would be Bruce Lee since he’s dead I probably go with whoever the premiere movie martial artist is nowadays the genre has kind of fallen by the wayside in recent years maybe like Donnie Yen is Donnie Yen no Donnie and she’s too old he’s pretty old yeah whoo yeah all my favorite martial arts stars are too old Jackie Chan Jet Li I need somebody young who is the star of the raid eco wise but he’s Indonesian oh yeah we probably want like a Chinese actor for this you know who I’m hoping for who Jay chew he played Kato in The Green Hornet film that came out with Rogen yeah I have not seen the actor in enough films and he was pretty damn good in that movie too yeah yeah he’d be perfect especially considering that Bruce Lee used to play Kato so this guy also played Kato and I said Bruce Lee would be perfect for the role so therefore this guy would be perfect for the role mentioning Iron Fist earlier let’s move on to the news about Daredevils cancellation by Netflix this one I only partially saw coming I was hoping it would have happened because it’s such a fantastic series the best out of the entire defenders line a season 3 was fantastic right but the fact that Netflix did like hardly anything to promote daredevil season 3 considering it came out like a month after iron fist season 2 yeah and they they kind of buried the show within the app itself I figured that Netflix was just kind of done with these Marvel series and it has a lot to do as we had mentioned before with Disney removing all of their content off of that platform and getting it ready to put on their own Disney Plus platform I’m kind of upset with how like butthurt netflix is over that yeah right let’s like get over it it’s a grow up welcome to the [ __ ] up stop being a little jerk don’t you like money I mean they get paid for these shows right but I guess none of these shows are bringing in the same ratings that they used to I wonder why again yeah you could blame a lot of that on the marketing itself and maybe the quality of the iron fish but no daredevil should never have been canceled it was canceled in its prime season 3 was the best season of the series though I have to say that’s probably better than being canceled at its worst that’s little consolation to me sucks I’m silly but I’m hoping that these characters will see either the big screen or the small screen again in some capacity whether or not it’s a show that’s gonna be on Disney Play which I doubt Disney may bring those characters to hulu considering that they now own a majority share of that platform yeah and you can put more mature content on Hulu and they still want people to watch Hulu so right they don’t want to pull all their content on Disney Plus right exactly I’m really hoping that they don’t recast a lot of these actors I really love my Coulter really love Charlie Cox and I really love Krysten Ritter not so sure about Finn Jones although he did grow on me throughout the course of his series so yet don’t recast Finn Jones either bring them all back but this time give Finn Jones you know quality material to work with maybe put the Marvel Studios division in charge of the Marvel television division because as we know right now they’re very separate entities and they don’t always play well together yeah and hopefully that changes in the future so checking in on this Captain Marvel trailer it looks like it has not been uploaded to YouTube yet so what we’re gonna go ahead and do is skip over that and we’ll go ahead and talk about Captain Marvel in our next episode next week and guess that means it’s duel time and it’s all come down to this Justice League vs Avengers bring it on my friend are you ready ion by Ben RIT was born ready let’s do it [Music] okay so Justice League versus Avengers these are DC and Marvel’s to premiere super teams which is why we’re putting them together for our 100th episode it’s the mother of all matchups basically it’s not gonna get much more epic than this because the Avengers are marvel the Justice League is DC and this matchup will finally determine which comic universe is better that’s not technically true it’ll just decide what super team is better but it will be a serious blow to the ego of whomever loses Jonathan oh I don’t think my ego is gonna be bruised we’re dealing with the Justice League here yeah a bunch of kids jumping around in their footie pajamas pretty much the Justice League members are gods I’m what is Thor then a loser who needs a haircut what about Aquaman outgoing needs a haircut he looks cool all right so uh the way we do these duel episodes if this is your first time listening to us is we take stats for each of the characters and we compare them against each other running a Monte Carlo simulation which basically randomizes each of their stats along a normal distribution that accounts for all the variables that they’ll face in battle yeah if you remember the spike TV show from like ten years ago Deadliest Warrior it’s not on anymore and you can’t really find out on that folks I’ve looked it’s the same method that they used right exactly so the reason that we do this is because it’s a very kind of mathematical scientific approach to actually answering the question of who would win between these two characters and you know Jonathan and I are extremely biased to our own personal right you know sides so this is the most objective way to figure it out for us right right so there’s no bias no fan votes no uncharacteristic feats of strength just all stats right and most of those stats are based on the official Marvel Power Rankings and we extrapolate DC’s character stats from that same criteria yeah there’s a few other stats that we incorporate as well so before we compile these stats and run the Monte Carlo simulation what we like to do is we like to give a breakdown of the characters in this case the team’s histories and go into a speculative breakdown of how we think the match between the two would actually pan out right and I think I start first with the Justice League this time yep go for it so the 1950s DC comics formerly known as national periodical publications successfully introduced two new versions of Golden Age superheroes including the flash Green Lantern and Aquaman kick-starting the Silver Age of comics how can we not known as Johnny and PP welcoming are known as timely Joseph that would be awesome actually so wanting to put their most popular superheroes together on a team DC developed the Justice League of America as a callback to the Golden Age super team known as the Justice Society of America it quickly became one of their best-selling titles selling so well that Marvel ordered Stanley to develop a super team for their line which resulted in the Fantastic Four a yeah I know the story so if you like the Fantastic Four you have the Justice League to thank so you really like the Justice League and your DC fan Justice League first came together in a 1960s issue of The Brave and the bold joining forces to defeat Starro the Conqueror though according to Canon the team of Superman Batman Wonder Woman Green Lantern the flash Aquaman and Martian Manhunter came together as a team when they were unable to stop the appel yax alien invasion on their own recognizing they worked well together as a team they received government sponsorship and given the name Justice League of America there have been many versions of the Justice League though the first team set up their initial headquarters called the secret sanctuary in a cave in happy harbor Rhode Island the original lineup of seven members expanded to include Green Arrow the atom Hawkman and black Canary they also had a teenage mascot who joined them on missions named snapper car but he resigned after he was tricked into revealing the location of the secret sanctuary to the Joker what an idiot yeah in the 1970s the Justice League moved their headquarters to a satellite orbiting the Earth during which time new team members were added including Zatanna elongated man Hawkgirl and Red Tornado in the 1980’s the added firestorm over time personal matters and growing workloads prevented many of the original core members of the Justice League from fighting substantial involvement in the team after an attack by Martians destroyed the satellite the Justice League of America was disbanded aquaman decided to form a team of young diverse superheroes who wouldn’t have outside commitments that team known as the Justice League Detroit due to their headquarters being in a Detroit warehouse included team members steel vibe gypsy and vixen after a disagreement with the team’s financier Hank Heywood who you can learn more about in our commander steel versus Captain America episode the team moved back to their original headquarters the secret sanctuary eventually all the team members of this Justice League incarnation died or left the team leaving Martian Manhunter as its sole member businessman Maxwell Lord decided to sponsor his own Justice League not affiliated with the American government this team which would eventually be known as Justice League International included the Green Lantern Guy Gardner the Blue Beetle Ted Kord Booster Gold Captain Atom and dr. fate amongst others the team grew so big it was split up into two branches Justice League New York and Justice League Europe but after the deaths and the return of Superman in the 90s as well as the death of their teammate ice during an event known as Judgment Day the teams were fractured and the UN sanction was revoked for a short time Martian Manhunter led a team of rotating superheroes known as Justice League task force and Captain Atom led a rogue team named extreme justice extreme that’s right that all changed when the original seven League members now with Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern and Wally West as the flash came together once again this time to stop an invasion of shape-shifting telepathic white Martians which you can learn more about in our martian manhunter vs. vision episode this new team known as the JLA set up a headquarters called the watchtower on the moon and it included members such as Plastic Man steel Huntress and an angel named as Ariel among others this team faced some of their greatest challenges such as the lex luthor led supervillain team the injustice game or their own deaths and magical resurrections and Atlantis’s obsidian age and the Tower of Babel story line where Ra’s al Ghul’s stole and used Batman’s plans for defeating each member of the Justice League their most traumatic experience however came in the identity crisis storyline when the wife of one of their former members elongated man was killed leading to the revelation that she had been attacked and raped by the villain dr. light years prior during the league’s satellite era several members of the league from that time captured the villain and decided to not only erase his memory via magic but also alter his personality and decreased his intelligence Batman walked in on them performing the magic lobotomy and outraged over their unethical action began attacking them at which point the other League members subdued him and erased his memory as well the same leaguers had performed the same lobotomies on several other villains over the years and as all of this came to light several more close personal relatives of superheroes with secret identities were killed the murderer was revealed to be the Adam’s ex-wife and the superhero community was never the same most of DC’s villains responded to the ordeal by joining forces and forming the society of super villains to protect himself and monitor and record all metahuman activity at all times Batman secretly created a stealth satellite called brother AI whose artificial intelligence was hacked and manipulated by Maxwell Lord who used the satellite to turn unaware and innocent sleeper agents into unstoppable killing machines known as Oh max Wonder Woman was forced to kill Maxwell Lord in order to stop him causing an even bigger rift within the Justice League and eventually leading to the destruction of the watchtower headquarters on the moon during an event known as Infinite Crisis during which time the JLA was disbanded after the later event known as Final Crisis in which Darkseid finally got the anti-life equation the Green Lantern Hal Jordan and Green Arrow forms a new Proactive less reactionary Justice League team those fairly short-lived after the events of Flashpoint in which the flash rebooted DC’s continuity and you can learn more about that in our flash vs Quicksilver match the Justice League members met for the first time during an invasion from the planet apocalypse led by the villain Darkseid but this time cyborg took the place of Martian Manhunter as a founding member of the team a separate government-sponsored team called Justice League of America was created by Amanda Waller and its members which included Martian Manhunter Hawkman and Catwoman were chosen specifically to counter the abilities of the self-formed Justice League another team to emerge in the new  on occult and magic-based threats John Constantine was the unofficial leader of this team though recently Wonder Woman has taken charge also recently a new cosmic based team called Justice League Odyssey has also been established hmm who’s in that team Darkseid surprisingly What’s in Starfire and Ezreal and a Green Lantern and cyborg for my team that I’ll be using in this duel I’m sticking with the original 7 members of the Justice League Superman Batman Wonder Woman Green Lantern the flash Aquaman and Martian Manhunter it’s my favorite lineup and what I would consider to be the purest lineup they are arguably DC’s most popular characters though I did for a time strongly consider cyborg instead of Martian Manhunter considering cyborg was part of the Justice League movie but the farther we get away from that film’s initial release the less important that feels to me especially now that Martian Manhunter is currently a member of the Corps Justice League team into the comics for the first time in new 52 continuity and ultimately I decided I would eventually save cyborg for when we pit the giant-size x-men team against the New Teen Titans with Beast Boy Raven Starfire yes yeah I thought that made more sense yeah that’ll be a good match to the Justice League a lot of that actually felt like you were reading my biography of the Avengers really yeah somewhat similar histories in some regards and I’ll go ahead and get into the Avengers backstory the Avengers are a super team among the mightiest and most renowned in Marvel though the roster has changed numerous times since their inception in the early 1960s for a Marvel superhero to be an Avenger is a great honor and an immense responsibility as they are Earth’s Mightiest Heroes against the worlds and the universe’s greatest threats they were first brought together through a scheme by the villainous Loki in an attempt to draw his brother Thor out he manipulated the Hulk into destroying a railway line responders to the damage sent a radio message to the Fantastic Four for help but Loki intercepted and routed the message to Thor however unbeknownst to him Iron Man ant-man and the wasp also received the message on that day Earth’s Mightiest Heroes found themselves united against a common threat collectively with the Hulk they defeated Loki afterward proposing they join as a team to fight the foes no single hero could withstand it was the wasp that suggested they call themselves the Avengers and the team was born Iron Man set the group up as a nonprofit organization to cover its operational expenses and donated one of his mansions to use as the team’s headquarters refer to as the Avengers mansion the original founders formalized a charter and set of bylaws to govern their operations that the team still follows to this day the Hulk however was soon found to be too unstable to help lead a team so his founder status was revoked and retroactively Lee granted to Captain America the world war 2 legend that the team discovered frozen deep in the Arctic waters together they took on threats such as Baron Zemo and the Masters of evil and the time-traveling villain Kang the Conqueror through the frequent roster changes over the years at least one of the five founding members would typically remain on the team to lead and enforce the bylaws the earliest instance of this was when Iron Man Thor ant-man and the wasp took a leave of absence and Captain America led their first new recruits Hawkeye Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch who me you can all learn about more on their respective duel episodes though the general public was wary of these three rookies due to their former villainous status they proved their worth and mended their reputations by fighting alongside cap against threats like the Mandarin and some of the other early Avengers recruits included Hercules Black Panther Vision Black Widow Miss Marvel later known as Captain Marvel and Falcon they tackled Universal threats for the first time as they journeyed into space to help resolve the kree-skrull war which threatened to spill over into Earth’s solar system as the team grew in influence the united nations became more involved in its internal affairs assigning a governmental liaison and drafting a new charter that regulated admissions policies and sent membership limits to just seven heroes a move they kept in America agreed with to protect the world should the team ever be compromised as a results the team branched off a West Coast division consisting of some new members in Mockingbird war machine Tigra and Wonder Man though the West Coast branch eventually disbanded it was a common procedure to have all former members on call as reservists should the need arise such as against threats like Ultron when he destroyed the nation of Slovenia or Thanos when he required the six infinity gems some of these reservists included Namor the Submariner photon she-hulk and Cersei of the Eternals nearly all of the reservists were called in to battle the psychic entity known as Ocelot and many of the team gave their lives in battle including the founding members with most of the team gone Black Widow led the Avengers for a while before the team eventually disbanded it turned out the deceased heroes were merely transported to a pocket dimension by the Invisible Woman and mr. fantastic son Franklin Richards he brought them back and the team reformed to fight against the likes of Morgan la Fey immortus and Scorpio everything came crashing down however when the Scarlet Witch lost her grip on reality after years of stress and her growing abilities out of control she destroyed the Avengers mansion and manifested an alien invasion that killed ant-man vision and Hawkeye you can learn more about what happened here with her in our Zatanna vs. Scarlet Witch episode simultaneously thoris home of Asgard went through Ragnarok the twilight of the gods and he and the Norse realms vanished for a time after many months with the team disbanded a group of Heroes found themselves working together to retrieve the villains that had escaped the raft Prison Island these heroes included Ironman kept America spider-man Wolverine Luke Cage spider-woman the century and Ronan together they formed the New Avengers the destroyed Avengers mansion was turned into a memorial and Iron Man built a new headquarters for the team in Manhattan now called Avengers tower this new team did not have the backing of the United Nations however which did not sit well with Iron Man and largely influenced his decision to promote the superhero Registration Act which would require all superheroes to become government operatives Captain America disagreed with this however and marbles heroes divided themselves among the two viewpoints in the superhero Civil War though the site for registration eventually won the dangers of governmental control became clear when Norman Osborn aka the Green Goblin became the head of the international peacekeeping and espionage organization known as shield and restructured it into a new organization called Hammer as he led a group of villains rebranded as heroes in the Dark Avengers Captain America and Luke Cage led a group of underground heroes called The Secret Avengers after the fall of Osborn and Hammer and the return of Thor the Avengers proper were reassembled together they fought against foes like the serpent Hydra and even the x-men when the two teams disagreed on how to handle the return of the Phoenix force which you can learn more about in our Raven vs Phoenix episode after the events of the secret war when all realities in the multiverse were destroyed and then remade by the Fantastic Four using the powers of the all-powerful beyonders an all new and all different team of Avengers were assembled though they weren’t that different as many of the new members were simply legacy characters new people under similar masks but since that time the team has grown incredibly diverse in its types of heroes animating heroes such as Ghost Rider Doctor Strange the new Miss Marvel and Nova for my Avengers team I’m not necessarily going with the original founding members but I would say that these seven heroes are all considered classic Avengers so you won’t see a lot of the new avengers or the all-new all-different Avengers in this particular matchup though I will be using them way down the line if we ever decide to revisit this match knowing that I was going up against the Justice League I chose a team that I think is powerful enough and diverse enough in their power sets to pose a challenge and of course a team that just says Avengers to me so I went with the big three Captain America Iron Man a Thor and ant-man being that he’s a quintessential founding member though I did not go with the wasp just because she largely shares the same power set with ant-man and I wanted to mix it up a bit I included Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch both who were early recruits and who might consider the wild cards of this battle with some great tricks up their sleeves and lastly I have vision who was another early recruit and a classic Avengers character yeah that’s a good Avengers team that definitely says Avengers to me yeah I thought so yeah I’m pleased with this team and I think they definitely can stand toe-to-toe with the founding members of the Justice League so that does it for the histories of these teams as for the characters themselves they’ve each had duel episodes that we’ve done in the past so if you want to know their specific power sets go ahead and check out those episodes if you have not already so yeah with the histories out of the way let’s go ahead and get into our speculative scenario where we pit these two teams against each other this is gonna be epic as hell the only rules that we set up for our matchups are that the characters don’t know anything about each other before facing off right now some of these characters have met before in previous two episodes but we’re Martian Manhunter and vision yeah and and Thorin Wonder Woman but we’re just gonna erase those from their memories you know we’re developing a continuity here so they don’t know anything about each other they just know that each other our threats that need to be taken down right we also set the rules that they start off about 50 yards apart in an environment that plays no bearing on the battle itself we never take stats for the environment considering that it’s you know it’s a variable elements of battle and some characters have advantages and certain environments over others so we just say it plays a non-factor within this battle right the environment is is too big of a variable and it’s an outside variable right so yeah these characters have to win on their own merits not with help from anything else exactly all right let’s do it okay so who will make the first move in this battle I think it’s pretty obvious who goes first it’s the fastest one yeah Thor no the flesh okay yeah okay so the flesh quickly scouts the battlefield that sees Hawkeye up to him and pulls out all of his arrows from his quiver why Hawkeye because he’s the weakest she’s the weakest link in the chain in my opinion that’s messed up okay all right so all of hot guys arrows are out of his quiver at this point yeah and he gives the arrows to Batman oh that’s a shitty way to start off okay so that happens and and the flash is basically handing over these arrows over to Batman and Batman is probably wondering like what the hell am I gonna do with these I don’t have a bow but the Avengers see what just happened and right away Scarlet Witch reacts by putting a hex over some of hot guys arrows that the flash is holding and it sets them off basically specifically has explosive arrows so they just explode right into Flash’s face geez so the flash gets blown up you know probably some wells and falls any Hill okay I guess he’ll be off like recovering for a bit because he has a healing factor right so he’ll be healing meanwhile Batman recognized was Scarlet Witch did and recognizes her as a threat so he tells Martian manager to subdue her telepathically so Martian Manhunter puts her to sleep okay so she’s sleeping right now yeah oh that’s a pretty good one okay so the team probably doesn’t even know what happened with Wanda at this point because they don’t have any psychics on their team I guess if you could have considered anyone a psychic it would have been Wanda but she just falls asleep so they’re like what she’s falling asleep on the job but what’s happening right charge so Hawkeye runs over to his arrows and that they were like scattered all over the middle of the battlefield had the ones that didn’t blow up and he picks one up and he notches it in his bow and he fires it right into the crowd where the Justice League are okay it’s a sonic arrow and so is it less of these sonic frequency waves that like hurt the ears of the team and kind of disorient them okay but Green Lantern right away creates I don’t know like a pillow that counteracts the the solar absorbs the shock waves yeah exactly and that’s when Batman suggests to Superman that he should heat vision the the string guys both you you just really want to take out Hawkeye huh I do you have against him that’s messed up he sucks okay so so Hawkeye is like he’s like oh [ __ ] so whoever comes at him he’s gonna be fighting with his boat like a staff basically okay at this point they see that the Superman has done his heat vision and not one to be outdone by lasers Iron Man shoots a repulsor blasts at Superman you know knocking him back okay barely barely knocking him back because he doesn’t know just how durable Superman was so he underestimated him right away Green Lantern sense of a shield goes teamwork you know walking the repulsor blasts from hitting Superman and then fires off lasers blasts of his own at Iron Man so I think those two are gonna be off like trading laser blasts at each other for a while okay so Thorin at this point is gonna jump in and he sees that Superman has a red cape just like he does so he’s gonna be like oh you know this might be my worthy opponent so he’s gonna summon down this magic lightning a [ __ ] and start zapping Superman and Superman is getting like really hurt by this lightning blast because it is magical in nature does have some magical properties and as we all know Superman has no defense against magic okay but super n recognizes that he’s being electrocuted and he’s so much for help from Wonder Woman who is you know competent against magic and she uses her her silver bracelets to block the lightning and reflect it at Captain America Captain America holds up a shield obviously and it deflects the magic off of that then he curls the shield directly into Batman’s dumb fat face and it bounces off and Batman’s like oh my [ __ ] face why do I leave it exposed right here Captain America leaves the space expel it’s true that’s true okay except that it doesn’t hit Batman what because the range that Captain America is throwing this set it’s not like a laser it’s not gonna move fast enough to catch Batman unaware he’s definitely Susan incoming all right so he dodges it and then throws a smoke pellet which gives him some cover and some room to be stealthy okay at this point vision is gonna go ahead and assist Iron Man with Green Lantern by phasing into Green Lantern’s power ring which disrupts it from shooting at any energies and he’s like what’s going on I guess that would disrupt the ring yeah I’m pretty sure would but with that opening Iron Man let’s loose like kind of like a flash bang like flare thing that blinds Green Lantern so he can’t see I’m not you that’s like he’s one weakness okay so Green Lantern is down but before a vision and iron man can really do anything about it all of a sudden iron man gets a trident right in the arc reactor he gets knocked back to the grant oh geez meanwhile Martian Manhunter senses another mind present on the field that he can’t see so he hones in on Ant Man who’s been trying to do some [ __ ] he I don’t know oh I’ll tell you what ant man’s been doing this whole time see Batman’s he’s hidden in the smoke and he sees what’s going on and Batman he he pulls out this Batarang uh-huh but as he reaches for his Batarang he realizes that his entire belt his gun but because ant-man was on Captain America’s shield when Captain America through it and leaped onto Batman and undid his belts while shrunken down while Batman didn’t even know what was going on dang and when Batman was like what what’s going on all of a sudden ant-man shrinks to normal size while simultaneously doing an uppercut and punches Batman straight in the dome piece okay I’m not gonna lie I was unprepared for that you know babies man we could take a punch for sure uh-huh with his expert martial arts skills you know he’s a much better fighter than ant-man so that’s when he like scarily fast just like disables the atom by punching a little right in the solar plexus and she’s like I’m making him like vomit all over so he’s too busy vomiting and he takes back his utility belt grab some veterans and then heard about Hawkeyes bow string which he just had gun reattached [ __ ] okay all right yeah so Hawkeye was working on restringing his bone it was just disabled again so he’s like god dammit so by this time the flash is back in business okay that’s when he goes up to Captain America and just plows right into a my SuperSpeed into his shield or no nope not to a shield okay because he knows it’s a shield all right so catch America is like we have an enhanced on the field a super-fast look look for the blur or something like that and then throws like I’m on it and using his godlike senses he manages to track the flash down he holds me all near straight at the flash uh-huh and the flash you know who’s able to kind of like slow down time probably sees it coming yeah I starts running away from it but Mjolnir is like kind of able to keep up you know and is controlling it so that it it chases like right behind him Jesus so the flash is like freaking out he doesn’t know to do because he’s about to get hit by this huge s hammer okay this is probably all happening like within an instant but Thor is still you know like momentarily distracted he was fighting Wonder Roman right and this gives one room with the opportunity to wrap her lasso around him and bind him before his hammer can even get back to him okay alright so Thor’s like struggling against the lasso and he can’t break it because the lasso of course is indestructible right so a Thor tied up she grabs her lasso and swings it around like in a big circle right towards Superman who like lace him out with a punch teamwork baby okay so like Thor was like getting wailed on now by like Wonder Woman and Superman and he’s like oh [ __ ] I better call my hammer back because I’m I’m gonna need it now to fight these two guys and I better stop making it chase the speedy guy right meanwhile vision flies up to Aquaman uh-huh like it starts whaling on him with his super dense fists okay that’s gonna rock you man summons a Kraken to eat vision okay but then vision just turns intangible flies out of the Kraken and then the continues wailing on alchemy dang it okay I’ll come and stephenie gonna need some backup so as vision is like pummeling Aquaman awesome that’s when Marshall man enters like arm just appears like through visions chest and then like it comes back out like it has like his machinery his machine cart in his hand vision like okay he’s probably injured by Marshall Manhunters counter phasing but as marsh Manhunter was like about to pull out his his circuitry vision went intangible again so Martian Manhunter was only partially successful I would say that vision is pretty damn injured good but iron man saw this so he flies over to Martian Manhunter and he’s like don’t you hurt my vision friend and he shoots out like these like a whole bunch of freakin missiles that just explode in these fiery blasts and Martian Manhunter is like oh my god it’s fire my one and only weakness I can’t take it okay by this time Green Lantern site had recovered from the flare and he sees what’s happening to Martian monitor and feels his mental anguish so he creates a bunch of fire trucks and fire fighters and with hoses and they’re just spraying down the whole area just clearing out the fire all right at this point Wanda has woken up from her sleep and she puts a hex fear over Green Lantern’s power ring that causes it to like kind of malfunction and it’s just like shooting out like these like swirling tangled energies as opposed to why he wants to shoot out okay well the hex fears like stay there yeah the hex crews gonna stay there so like Greenland there’s like think it and he’s like shaking his fist trying to like shake the hex fear away but nothing’s happening so green lantern at this point it’s super vulnerable at which point vision flies over and cold clocks I’m at full density oh my gosh okay that probably means he’s out of this match he was anyway with the hex fear and his ring so there’s Green Lantern my most powerful guys okay all right that just happened all right okay so Martian Manhunter alerts the team that Green Lantern is down so that’s when Batman looks over and sees that it was this Android who took out Green Lantern so he fires off an EMP which takes out both Iron Man and vision oh geez well an ad vision couldn’t go low density to avoid it because he was partially damaged by Martian Manhunter well low density wasn’t gonna protect him from the EMP anyway he normally is protected from EMP but I’ll say that at this point he wasn’t due to his damaged nature this EP actually wouldn’t affect Iron Man because Iron Man has a built-in a Faraday cage that protects him from that but I will say that yeah visions probably add on the match at this point due to his system being D powered okay finally at this point Hawkeye has restrung his bow and he picks up another arrow off the field and he shoots a net arrow at Batman which completely covers him in and it’s like an adamantium net you know so Batman’s like trapped in that net okay so Batman’s gonna need help getting out of the stand so you so much Aquaman for help who comes over it leaps over with his Trident and his Trident is enth metal which is like you cut through anything try it it isn’t metal yeah and it cuts right through the adamantium that can it cut through it can you know we have this discussion in the Wolverine Hawkman fight where we determined that they probably couldn’t cut through each other take it previous continuity well regardless Aquaman lifts the net off of Batman and the throws astride it right at Hawkeye and the Trident hits jacquez bow and it snaps the half his I’ll command a good-enough marksman to do that yeah sure I guess he doesn’t even need to hit it with a sharp part of the Trident alcaman throws it with enough force to probably break a bowline with his with the China and as long as it catches it exactly so so Hawkeye is like damn it again alright Superman and Wonder Woman are still dealing with Thor Thor’s like trying to defend himself with his hammer he’s getting real desperate so he he summons like this ice storm that kind of like freezes the whole environment right so the flash is like slipping and sliding around and and he ends up like falling onto his ass and sliding and it’s sliding right in to Ryan to Captain America’s shield who’s like sitting there were bracing for him and Captain America just like POW just knocks him out with his shield and like punches him in the face interesting normally I would say that like you know the flash could dodge that but the cold actually does slow him down which is why Captain Cold is like his number one villain yeah practically and he ran into cap shield at like almost light speed so the dudes out are you serious yeah that was convenient well he didn’t have control over his running anymore sure Captain America capitalized on it okay so Superman saw what happened to the flash as he was fighting Thor so with his super speed he swoops lifts Captain America up into the sky and then lets him go and catch America catches himself by landing on his shield then he Hass back up and kept American hurls his shield right as Superman okay but Superman catches the shield huh and then he sends his ice breath down on Captain America and freezes him again like oh not again okay so Captain America is you know just pretty much frozen on the battlefield now but Iron Man could probably thaw Captain America out and we all know that Captain America doesn’t die from being frozen so Iron Man flies over to Captain America and starts flying him out using heat from you know one of his temperature control systems okay but as he’s distracted doing that that’s when Martian Manhunter comes up from behind him and does essentially the same thing he did a vision except this time it’s gonna be successful because Ironman can’t go intangible right he sends his arms through iron man’s body yeah and he even has an especially weak heart exactly that is artificial so right alright there you go alright I guess iron man’s out of the match but Captain America is unthought I will say that all right so now Hawkeye has once again restrung his bow and by this point he’s just [ __ ] sick of all this [ __ ] so he pulls another arrow off the ground and it’s an acetylene arrow okay so it’s a torch based like fire arrow and he fires it right at Marsh Manhunters head and it goes through his brain and and kills him essentially geez hot guys not about killing he’ll do jeez so Hawkeye just took out Martian Manhunter what man dang it he’s like most powerful guys now that you have too many more powerful guys out you have Thor and that’s basically it not all my guys are powerful okay so the Justice League all realizes that Marshall manager is now dead because they’re no longer telepathically linked uh-huh oh yeah that’s right okay so one room was liked by Hera she was like weeps over to Hawkeye and like okay okay he quickly like knocks and arrow and like fires it right at one woman’s head wish she blocks with her silver bracelets and then grabs him by the neck and twists his neck oh geez she’s just picking on all the weak guys involved like your frickin strongest guys that’s over then what do you wanted to do okay okay so Hakka is out of the match yep all right but little did Wonder Woman know that the arrow that hot guy fired at her there was no mere arrow ant-man was actually riding on it and once now Wonder Woman’s like standing there and she was like I don’t feel so good and all of a sudden she falls down to the ground incapacitated by ant-man he was inside of her brain you know knocking it out okay so now Wonder Woman’s off of the field geez Edmund took out Wonder Woman that’s I don’t even know if that’s possible okay whatever she’s out I feel like she could block that with her bracelets right exactly and then and then a man jumps out of her ear and at full size okay okay so Aquaman just saw what happened and so he leaps over with his Trident and just Spears ant-man by a man catches the Trident as he’s growing into Jaime man because normally he’s not strong enough to withhold astride it right he’s growing at the same time so he increases his strength so he’s able to hold back Aquaman’s trident oh crap and like he like picks Aquaman up like like he’s an action figure okay and like and like Aquaman is like stabbing him with his trident but it’s just like little pricks you know it doesn’t even hurt giant man okay okay but that’s when an Aquaman Reese summons his crankin who’s been just like one oh the batter fill this whole time alright and then we have like two like Godzilla like sighs like guys like just duking it out over the battlefield yeah and giant man punches this cracking like right in the face okay yeah and the Kraken lifts up it’s like huge tentacle like wraps it around giant man’s neck and just like chokes him out oh geez you puts a sleeper hold on him no it isn’t just like knock him out it like suffocates him oh geez all right so you’re taking Jamie man out of this match basically exactly okay Scarlet Witch saw this happen and so she uses her reality altering powers and she turns the Kraken into like this like you know tiny little like fluffy puppy okay the puppies just running around the field and then she turns to Aquaman and she pulls a mirror on him where she like dehydrates his body completely using her reality altering power she takes all the the moisture out of his body how did she know to do that because dehydration kills anybody especially Aquaman though okay so I’ll go man dehydrated he’s just a husk and he’s off the field okay but Batman saw this him and he pulls out a cattle prod and aims it right at her head and just lets it fire he has a cattle prod sure oh you know like a long-range taser okay she channels the electrical energy that she’s being electrocuted with into her hands and she’s EPS it right at Batman okay but all the time she took like channeling that like a Hadouken that was like she was gonna throw a Hadouken so when he throws it he like dives out of the way and like throws down a smoke pellet hiding himself okay that doesn’t matter this Karlovic because she could just make the smoke dissipates using her powers but when she does make the smoke dissipate BAM it’s not there oh [ __ ] all sudden he’s behind her uh-huh he moved stealthily behind her and just clocks her knocking crowded the battle alright that was actually pretty clever all right Scarlet Witch is out of the battle okay so now I only have two guys left Captain America and Thor this is like Superman versus and Batman vs Captain America and Thor but you know what it’s not gonna come down to you know they’re equal matches since you guys like to pick on my weaker guys so it’s gonna be like you know what [ __ ] this Batman guy and he’s gonna throw me on here and it’s just gonna pile into Batman and uh essentially take him out of the field there’s no way Batman can do anything against me linear okay well if Thor’s gonna do that to Batman Superman’s gonna be like okay I see how we’re playing here and he just grabs Captain America throws him into space okay all right so now it’s down to just floor and and Superman and I’m feeling pretty confident about this one because Superman is weak to magic and Thor shoots magic blasts from his hammer so what he does is he channels all of his godly energy into me linear and he’s gonna fire what’s called the God blast and it’s just a magical energy blast that can crack a Celestials armor in half it’s it’s really super powerful and he just fires it right at Superman ending this match now as Superman sees Thor like channeling this this energy super arm pulls out his ultimate weapon which is the super flare which is like essentially a nuclear bomb right okay and he’s able to do that before Thor channels all of his energy okay well that’s a great way to stalemate this okay so either Thor defeats Superman with his gut blast right Superman defeats Thor with his super flare right and they’re both like this explosive energy blast no matter what happens whatever environment they’re in is just totally annihilated exactly okay that’s a great way to end this I cannot think of a better way to end that I actually thought it when they came to come down to the weakest guys I thought I was gonna take your strongest guys out first but that’s not really how it ended like it is fitting that Superman was the last man standing yeah so I think we’ve gone on long enough let’s go ahead and run the stats and find out who wins this match let’s do it okay I think that was pretty epic that was doesn’t get more epic than that if you know if this would happen in real life I don’t think any of the Marvel guys would have got hurt but since I’m trying to play fair you know of course they had to go tit for tat a little bit but we did run the stats we took stats for every single one of these individuel characters and we compared them to each other individuel single character so it took like two hours to actually run all this data because we had to run each match and I was a long time but we have there was some interesting data that came out of this yeah sure it looks like actually Hawkeye was probably the weakest out of all of them which I figured I don’t like to think of haka like that I mean he he is super accurate super powerful from a distance you know right but it is kind of easy to mess with him he didn’t win any of the matches against any of the other characters no on my team no not a single other character including you know some of your weaker characters like like Batman Martian Manhunter was by far the most powerful member he’s like way over powered his tests even went above like Superman and Wonder Woman’s that was crazy and Thor’s who was my most powerful character but I had a lot of solid heavy hitters including vision ant-man and Iron Man right so the Avengers definitely compensated for you know Hawkeye being the weakest yeah I also had Superman Wonder Woman and Green Lantern right yes that’s true Captain America and Batman there were kind of like middle-of-the-road in terms of like how their stats added up and everything like yeah and an Aquaman was pretty comparable to ant-man in terms of like a stat total right a lot of these individuel matches came down to like coin tosses because they were pretty evenly matched right right overall though the winner of our 100th episode duel Justice League versus Avengers is the yes DC’s better it’s official it’s not official it’s official no you know just as I couldn’t be Olive Marvel this is just like good I can maybe I just didn’t pick the right team I could put in like Captain Marvel in there or the Hulk or somebody like that oh why didn’t you put in the Hulk because traditionally I don’t think of him is like a classic core Avenger even though he was a founding member and everything like that he hasn’t really been too involved in the team until like recently in the comics you know so what percentage did the Justice League win that’s all I care well what percentage do you think they want it like 80 80 you’re way off my friend it was way closer than that Justice League only 150 eight point seven percent of the matches with the Avengers one forty one point three really which is pretty close I think you know not too bad that is a lot closer than I thought it would be against your that team yeah against my seven yeah with your top seven against my team you guys only won five hundred eighty seven matches out of a thousand that’s that’s respectable that’s a good match thank you thank you I mean I’ll take respectable considering how overpowered DC is it’s all a bunch of cheater characters oh my god you don’t really even like in the end because how did they lose anything right I mean no honestly like if I would have chosen cyborg and you you would have chosen like the Hulk this may have turned out different yeah I’ll definitely choose the Hulk if we ever revisit this match and you choose like the Justice League B team and I choose the Avengers B team I’ll definitely go with the Hulk in that match for sure that’d be cool yeah maybe episode 200 oh yeah maybe maybe that’ll be a couple years away but that does it for this episode you know even though Marvel loss I’m not too heard about it because I think the Avengers put up a respectable fight that being said Marvel sucks DC’s a bunch of cheaters so yeah next week will be our holiday charity duel between detective chimp and Howard the Duck please don’t forget to visit tinyurl.com slash chimp Duck and again that link will be in the show notes to go ahead and check out the awesome art that Shannon V saboteur drew for that particular duel again all the proceeds go to a charity called women helping women please rate and review our show you’ve listened to it for a while if not please go ahead and subscribe to the show we put out episodes every week and there are a lot of fun definitely check out our past catalog of episodes yeah and show us with your friends if you know anyone who may enjoy our podcast please spread the word and also don’t forget that you guys have plenty of extra content to listen to with the redo Lepus ODEs so go ahead and go back to some of those and check out the show notes to find the time code to start listening yet right if you want to find us on social media or on Facebook Twitter and Instagram go ahead and visit dynamic duel comm where you’ll find links to our social media accounts as well as a link to our merchandise store where again you can find the commemorative 100th episode t-shirt of the JLA fighting the avengers yeah it’s really cool definitely check it out but we will talk to you guys next week and until then up up and away true believers