Joker: Folie à Deux Review

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This is a DynaMic Network podcast.

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And welcome to the Dynamic Duel Podcast, a weekly show where we review superhero films and debate the superiority between Marvel and DC by comparing their characters and stat-based battle simulations. I'm Marvelous Joe. And I'm his twin brother Johnny DC. And in this episode, guys, we are reviewing the only DC film that is going to be released in theaters this year, Joker Folie a Deux. And was the movie a colossal waste of time? I'm going to say yes. And I'm going to say...

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I hate you, but damn do I respect your opinion. We're gonna talk all about our opinions on this film later on this episode. It'll be a spoiler review, so make sure you've seen the film before you listen to us. Or not. I actually take that back. Why would you say that? I really don't care. Before we get into the review, we're gonna break down the latest comic book movie news to come out this past week, of which there was only one news item, and that is that there is a Robin-focused animated film in development called Dynamic Duo. Totally ripping us off. We're duel though. D-U-E-L.

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As always guys, we list our segment times in our episode description, so feel free to check out the show notes if you want to skip ahead to a particular topic. Our artificially intelligent duel simulator AJ9K has a quick message for our listeners, so listen up.

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Why hello there, do you want even more from this podcast? Then become a part of the dynamic duel community on Patreon, where you can choose from three tiers. The dynamic two-oh tier gives you access to our Discord chat server. The fantastic four tier gives you two bonus episodes each month, and the X-Force tier makes you an executive producer of this show. Lastly,

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The Diner Mike podcast network tier lets you create your own podcast using this Monte Carlo simulator. Johnny and Joe will help you develop your show, provide graphic support and consultation, and get you simulation results. Pitch the twins your ideas via email at dynamicduelpodcast at gmail.com. Check it out at patreon.com slash dynamicduel. Pip pip cheerio. Thanks AJ9K and thanks to everyone who supports the podcast.

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Guys, be sure to tune into the other shows in the DynaMic Podcast Network this week, including Max Destruction, which pits your favorite action heroes from film and television against each other. This week, hosts Scotty and Gilly are breaking down a Sting vs. Undertaker matchup. On the Senjoworld podcast, host Zachary Hepburn speculates on fights between fan favorite anime and manga characters. Last week, he found out who would win between Gridman and Kaiju 8. We teased the episode incorrectly.

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Zach will find out who will win between Muzan from Demon Slayer and Femto from Berserk. And on the Console Combat Podcast hosts John and Dean simulate battles between popular video game characters. In yesterday's episode, they determined who would win in a fight between Wukong from Black Myth Wukong and Asura from Asura's Wrath. Visit dynamicpodcasts.com or click the link in our show notes to listen to all of the shows in the DynaMic Podcast Network.

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But with that out of the way, quick to the no prize! A no prize is an award Marvel used to give out to fans. Our version, the dynamic duel no prize, is a digital award that we post on Instagram for the person that we feel gave the best answer to our question of the week. Last week we asked, what is your theory as to what the asterisk means in the Thunderbolts movie title? And we got a few answers. Some pretty good theories here. Let's go ahead and run down our honorable mentions as well as the no prize winner.

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Our first honorable mention goes to Mike Williams, who said, Hey gang, this is Mike Williams out of St. Louis, Missouri. The asterisk on Thunderbolts movie probably means that this is not the real team or they're going to introduce a team at the end of the movie. Who knows? So until DC makes a hit movie, make mine Marvel. That is correct. Until DC makes a good movie,

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make mine Marvel. Way to go Mike Williams. That's the sentiment we want from all the callers that call in for sure. Why am I not surprised that he's talking about movies and not comics? Typical Marvel fan. I think he's right there. So yeah, the primary theory regarding the asterisk at the end of the Thunderbolts movie title is that this is not the real Thunderbolts team. And that could mean either that the team labeled as the Thunderbolts in this film is actually a different team such as the champions.

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Secret Avengers, Dark Avengers, something like that. Or that they are called the Thunderbolts, but it's not like an official team title because they're classified. I think either of those options would make sense. Yeah, that second option there is what I actually think the asterisk means personally. So great answer, Mike Williams. Let's go ahead and move on to our next honorable mention. Scott Camacho, who said, Come on, we know what the asterisk is. They're trying to find another subtitle, but I'm gonna help them out. It's gonna be called Thunderbolts Red Alert. Why?

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because in the trailer we didn't see Ross. Where is Ross? I mean, I'm pretty sure the name Thunderbolts is affiliated with the Red Hulk. So I'm gonna say that it's gonna be a surprise maybe in the second trailer that we're gonna see the Red Hulk and it's gonna be Thunderbolts Red Alert. Now I would actually be surprised if Harrison Ford made some kind of cameo as a member of this team. Though I do think that perhaps one of the reasons the name of the team is classified

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is because it's a team that's sanctioned by Thunderbolt Ross in the same way that the Suicide Squad is sanctioned under Amanda Waller. That's possible. I can understand why a lot of people think that the Thunderbolts team is somehow affiliated with President Thunderbolt Ross. That's actually not the case from the comics. Thunderbolt Ross had nothing to do with the original Thunderbolts team led by Baron Zemo. But I can see how they might go that route in the MCU as a rationale for the name of the team.

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It'll be interesting to see how that all shakes out. If in fact, the Red Hulk will join the team, given that he was once a member of the Thunderbolts in the comic books. Great answer, Scott Camacho. Our next honorable mention goes to Mason Thompson. Who said? What's up? It's Mason. So this is this is the fact is, you know, this is just as simple as that. It's a star. Who's a star? Robert Downey Jr. Who does he play? Dr. Doom.

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Who's the villain? Dr. Doom. I hate you 3000. He's gonna be in the movie! But if I'm being for real, I think that they were like villains. And then by the end of the movie, they like changed good. If that makes sense. RDJ better not be in this movie. I'm still holding out hope that Marvel will actually still recast the role of Dr. Doom as unlikely as that will be. I don't want to see Robert Downey Jr. in the role for reasons that we discussed when that news was announced at Comic-Con. But-

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The whole conceit of the Thunderbolts team as they exist in the comic books is that the Thunderbolts are a group of villains trying to be heroes. So what you're saying is the Thunderbolts asterisk could be like, oh, it's a super team asterisk, actually it's villains. Or it's a villains team asterisk, it's actually heroes. One or the other. That barely makes sense. I'll take it. So great answer Mason Thompson. We want to give a quick shout out to Travis Herndon for taking the time to call in and leave an answer.

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His answer is actually pretty much almost exactly the same as the no-prize winner of this week, who is Jose Marcial. Who said? I have heard a pretty interesting theory pertaining to the asterisk and the thunderbolt. That at the end of the movie, somebody, preferably Norman Osborn, hopefully, William DeFoe, is going to come out and reveal that the whole movie or whatever was a tryout for them to see what they're capable of and this is going to be the Dark Avengers.

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Personally, I really vibe with this theory, so I hope that that is the case. Yeah, I really like this idea that the Thunderbolts, as they exist in this movie, is more of just like a tryout exercise to see who's gonna join the Dark Avengers set up by Norman Osborn, who led the team in the comics and in the movies is played by Willem Dafoe, at least in No Way Home. But you know, it could be the same actor for the MCU. I think that'd be fantastic.

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The reason this answer got the win over Travis Herndon is because Travis did say that this is potentially a recruitment team, but the idea of having Norman Osborn in the movie is really exciting and that was an added element that Jose Marcial threw in there. I do like the idea of there being some kind of secret benefactor of the team that's like the major villain. I don't think it's going to be Green Goblin though. I actually think it's going to be Dr. Doom, if anybody. Just stop, okay? Leave Dr. Doom's name out of your mouth.

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Robert Downey Jr. is not the real Doctor Doom, at least not the one that real Doctor Doom fans are hoping for. We want the real Victor Von Doom, so just keep his name out of your mouth if you know what's good for you. Well, only because Julia Louise Dryfist seems to be spearheading this whole group. She bought Stark Towers. How did she afford that? It's gotta be Doctor Doom money. I hope not. I don't want to see that version of Doctor Doom just yet. It wouldn't make sense outside of the context of the multiverse. The Thunderbolts movie, I believe, is not like a multiversal film.

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Well, it could lead into Avengers Doomsday. Possibly, I guess so. But great answer Jose Marcial. Congrats on winning this week's No Prize. If you the listener want a shot at winning your own No Prize, stay tuned to later on this episode when we'll be asking another question of the week. And now that that's done, on to the news!

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So last week, Deadline broke the news that a Robins Origin story titled Dynamic Duo is in the works with DC Studios and it's going to be made with puppetry animation. Actually, it's called specifically Momo animation and it's a new type of animation that a studio known as Swaybox has created that combines CGI with practical effects like stop motion and live action real-time performances.

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It's still in an experimental stage, but they wanna make a full length feature film to be played in theaters. The movie is being written by Matthew Aldrich, who also wrote Coco and Lightyear, and it's gonna be about the early days of Dick Grayson and Jason Todd as Robin. The film is gonna be set in James Gunn's DC cinematic universe, right? We don't know that 100%. I think it's going to be. All we know for sure is that it's not going to be a part.

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of the Matt Reeves Batman universe. Okay, well, I guess this animated film is a way for fans to see the origins of these characters that aren't gonna show up in the Brave and the Bold film. Cause we know the Brave and the Bold film is set to be a father, son, Batman and Robin movie where Damien Wayne is the character of Robin. But that would mean that Dick Grayson and Jason Todd and likely Tim Drake have already gone through the mantle in James Gunn's DC universe. So.

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It's nice that they're kind of getting their due diligence within this film. That's all their own. But it is strange that it's going to be animated. Does that make it seem like it's going to be a kid's film? It is 100 percent going to be geared towards families. Actually, one of the film's producers, Matt Reeves, has pretty much said that he's excited to do a family film with this studio. Does that mean that the film's not going to include a savage beatdown of Jason Todd at the hands of the Joker? Oh, that's a good question.

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That would be tragic if it didn't, but who knows? If they're gearing it towards families, it may be something that happens off screen. Who's to say? I've seen some of the test footage that they've been doing with Swaybox and some of the puppetry. It's not like the Muppets puppetry or anything like that. This is some high tech quality stuff. Almost in the same vein as Leica Studios, what they do with their stop motion animation. They made Kubo and the Two Strings and Corpse Bride, Paranorman, Coraline, stuff like that.

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What I'm wondering is who they're gonna cast in these roles, since James Gunn once stated that the voices that he casts for animated roles will be playing the characters in live action. Does that mean that when he casts Dick Grayson and Jason Todd in this dynamic duo movie, will we eventually see them in live action in the Brave and the Bold film? I think as long as like the adult live action actor can pull off a kid's voice, you could probably argue that that would be the case, but I would be surprised. I guess we'll find out.

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Yeah, there's no release date for this film. It was just announced, but we'll keep you guys updated as news breaks. But considering that this film is Robin focused, that brings us to our question of the week.

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Who is your favorite Robin from the comics and why? There have been a number to choose from from the comics and they all have their own fanbase so really excited to see what your guys answers are. Record your answer at dynamicduel.com by clicking on the red microphone button in the bottom right hand corner of the screen which will prompt you to leave us a voicemail. Your message could be up to 30 seconds long and don't forget to leave your name in case we include you on the podcast. We'll pick our favorite answer and award that person a dynamic duel no prize that we'll post to Instagram.

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Be sure to answer before October 12th.

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But I think that does it for all the news for this episode, so let's go ahead and get on to our main event, where we review the latest Warner Bros. DC theatrical release, Joker, Folie a Deux.

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Alright, Joker, Folie a Deux, the sequel to 2019's Joker, which up until Deadpool and Wolverine was the highest grossing rated-R film of all time and won the Oscars for best actor and best score, though it was nominated in more categories including Best Picture,

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best screenplay and best director, and it even won the coveted Golden Lion, the highest honor bestowed at the Venice Film Festival where it premiered. The sequel, Folia De, also premiered at the Venice Film Festival this year to much less critical acclaim, though I didn't think too much of it because critics didn't exactly love the first movie. Many thought it irresponsibly praised disenfranchised men and would inspire them to commit violence

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like the film's lead character Arthur Fleck, a somewhat valid concern considering the perpetrator of the 2012 Aurora Theatre shooting cited the Dark Knight Heath Ledger version of the character of the Joker as inspiration. Now, we reviewed 2019's Joker and gave it 4 stars, though I regret not giving it a higher rating. At least a 4.5, because the film was just so unbelievably well

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a result of me initially being uncomfortable with the film. That said, I'd argue now that the film was intentionally made to be uncomfortable and therefore succeeded as a work of art. So it's perhaps strange that while I'd argue the very same thing for Folly Ado, I'd also argue that this quote unquote work of art, with its fantastic performances and cinematography, unfortunately fails to deliver on the promises it set up.

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deciding instead to subvert audience expectations in the most unsatisfying of ways. It's like the first movie was this disturbing yet beautiful portrait of the Joker. And for the second movie, screenwriter and director Todd Phillips began painting yet another masterpiece. Only in the final moments of working on the painting, he decided to shit on it and just smear it across the canvas, just fucking ruining everything.

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almost as if he wanted to play a joke on the audience. As much as it breaks my heart, I can't recommend seeing this movie just because of that ending. If you have seen the movie and want to know my thoughts on it, please keep listening to this spoiler review. And if you haven't seen the film and want to spare yourself of watching it, you can still keep listening too. Yeah, yeah. Now, the premise of the film is actually pretty good. It's an experimental portrait of a sympathetic murderer

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Arthur Fleck, who learns he's facing the death penalty for his crimes right after falling for a manipulative and obsessive fan of his, Harleen Quinzel. I say it's experimental in the way it subverts audience expectations at the end, but also in the way music plays a role in the film. The movie was described by the press as a musical while it was in production, but while it does have characters singing in it, to me it felt more like a biopic of a musician.

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rather than a quote-unquote musical. Usually in musicals, the music serves the story in some way. You often have a song establishing the setting of the story and the protagonist's goals, and you'll have a number by the villain that expresses what they want as well. There's a whole formula to it that Follyado doesn't adhere to. Whereas in music biopics, music is often used simply as entertainment, as a way to liven up the story and visuals of the film.

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Well, music biopics are usually about musicians. Exactly. The Joker is not a musician, but I could see where Todd Phillips would kind of almost see him in that way. I understand why Todd Phillips would have wanted to focus on music in the sequel. The score of the first film composed by Hildur Gudnedadder was so damn moving. So expanding upon that with actual songs, I thought was going to be pretty genius, especially with Lady Gaga cast as Harley Quinn.

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If you've listened to the podcast for a while, you'll know that I've been excited for the idea of this film as a musical, because not only was it going to add something new to the comic book film genre, but also musicals could be pretty moving and powerful. I'm not one of these musical haters who refuse to see Folly Ado just because people sing in it. I'll hear people, even co-workers, say that, and I'm like, really? So you don't like Nightmare Before Christmas or-

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You know, the South Park movie or Prince of Egypt, Flight of the Concords. I want you to look me in the eyes and tell me you can't sing along to the songs in Aladdin. Well, to that end, I think this musical would have been more successful as a musical if the songs were original, building upon Hilda Gunnadadter's talent. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Hilda Gunnadadter's talent and Lady Gaga's songwriting talent. If she has any, I don't actually know if she does. Maybe someone else writes all of her music. But yeah, when we first learned.

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that this was going to be a jukebox musical. I was pretty disappointed by that when we were talking about it in our news section. And it turns out that that disappointment was just the tip of a giant iceberg of disappointment I would have by the end of watching this movie. Now, another reason I understood the musical direction is because Todd Phillips has explained when talking about the first movie that music lives in Arthur's soul, as evidenced in Joaquin Phoenix's graceful, masterful performance. It was merely glimpsed in the first film.

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But in the sequel, Arthur's internal melody comes to life in the form of several imagined musical numbers. Though again, I'm hesitant to call this a musical. As I mentioned, musicals tend to drive the narrative forward and provide some insight into a character's thoughts and feelings. And some of the songs in this film do indeed provide that function, but not very well. Partly because the songs are unoriginal and weren't written for this film. And also because the songs are really short. Like we just hear snippets here and there.

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and if they're not being sung by Harley Quinn as a way to mesmerize and manipulate Arthur, they take place in Arthur's imagination as fantasies or ways to cope with what's happening to him. I didn't mind the way Harley sank to him because of the whole music therapy thing that they had going on in this film, but I will admit the short imagined musical numbers were kind of pointless to the narrative of the film and halted its flow.

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Most of the musical numbers feel like they existed merely to take a break from the film's courtroom drama, but unnecessarily so. Like, the courtroom scenes are some of the most interesting in the movie, I felt, and that we learn some profound information that expands upon the tragedy of Arthur from the first film. Yeah, there were some musical scenes that we saw here that made sense to me in the context of what was happening in the plot.

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But by the time we got to the scene of Joker tap dancing and stuff like that, I'm like, the film has lost the plot. Yes, absolutely. And more than that, it made the film seem like it had no plot. Really, there's not too much story here. It felt like filler, like they were padding the runtime, like they just wanted to insert different musical numbers and various random places because they have Lady Gaga or some shit. Exactly. Part of the tragedy of Arthur in this film comes with the realization that Harley is only

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in love with Joker and what he represents rather than the pitiful Arthur, who she selfishly manipulates and tries to bring more and more of the Joker out of in him. There's this line that she repeats over the course of the film, and I took it almost as an explicit promise to the audience that she and the Joker were going to, quote, build a mountain, unquote. Now, this was in reference to a song by Sammy Davis Jr. who played a clown character in the musical Stop the World I Want to Get Off.

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He seems the line that he's going to build a mountain from a little hill, build a heaven from a little hell. Now that heaven was going to be the new world the Joker ushered in, a world for the downtrodden, built from the havoc that Joker and Harley were seemingly going to wreck upon the court and the system in glorious retribution for the difficult life Arthur and members of society have had. But in an almost apologetic and perhaps socially responsible way,

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Todd Phillips dashes any and all hopes for poetic justice or cathartic bloodlust, deciding instead to emphasize the tragedy of Arthur Fleck, but without any kind of beauty whatsoever. Todd Phillips has said that he thought it would be interesting if Arthur wasn't the comic book Joker, but maybe just the inspiration for him. But then why call your film Joker? Why make that promise that you can't keep or that joke for which you have no punchline? For sure.

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This pisses me off about Todd Phillips. You said that maybe this film was apologetic. I totally saw it that way. The vibe that I got walking out of the theater was that Todd Phillips kind of pussed out at the message that he had set up in the first film wanting to not perhaps instigate chaos and anarchy in the world, even though that didn't really happen. Like the first film, for all the fear that it instigated in clickbait news media, you know, nothing really came of it. People just saw it as an interesting film.

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But I think the idea of the first film almost scared Todd Phillips. And it seemed like he rode himself into a corner or he was just disavowing the first film. Yeah, it definitely seems that way. I'm definitely seeing a narrative emerge around this film that Todd Phillips must be ashamed of how his Joker has influenced to the culture and become a symbol for a type of revolution that perhaps is attractive to the same kind of people that critics were afraid would be inspired by the first film. I'm not sure that's exactly the case, though I will admit I did get

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like I said earlier, those apologetic vibes during the Joker's closing argument. But on my way home from seeing the movie, I actually thought of a different possibility for what went wrong with this film, and that's studio involvement. Not from the new DC studios, but from Warner Bros., who's been known to get too involved with DC's films like Suicide Squad and Justice League. And to me it makes sense that the studio would get involved if they felt one of their major characters was being mishandled, namely Harley Quinn.

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a character that DC head Jim Lee has called the fourth pillar of DC comics, along with the trinity of Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. Now between 2020's Birds of Prey film and the Harley Quinn animated series, Harley Quinn has been established as an independent feminist icon separate from the Joker and Thriving. This film couldn't end with Joker and Harley riding off together into the sunset, as I suspect many people wanted, like I wanted.

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For the sake of Harley, they needed to break the two up, though they managed to do so in the most anticlimactic way possible. Now we know from scenes from the trailers, like Harley with a haircut going down an elevator, or Harley and Joker high kicking their way down the steps of a courthouse, as well as set footage of Harley pushing Arthur down the steps at the end, that there was probably another cut of this film. And since Warner Brothers has said this film was never screened,

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in front of a test audience prior to its premiere, to me it makes a lot of sense that it was the studio itself that made Todd Phillips change his original vision. I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm saying it wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, to that end, maybe we'll be getting a director's cut of this film considering the poor reception that the movie is getting both critically and financially. If a hashtag restore the Phillips cut starts trending, I would not be surprised. Because we've praised Todd Phillips on this podcast before.

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We've called him an auteur. If he is entirely to blame for what went wrong with this film, then I am really confused. Like experimentation is admirable somewhat, but not with $200 million, not with fan expectations. If you're not going to make a comic book movie for comic book fans, then who are you making it for? Like was he making it just for Harley Quinn fans? Like they're not gonna like this movie. Lady Gaga fans aren't gonna like this movie.

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Fans of the first movie aren't going to like this movie. Why make a movie with actors of this caliber, with cinematography this beautiful, that no one is going to like? Well, as we've said on this podcast before, Todd Phillips wanted to make a movie about mental illness and knew that the best way to get people to see it is to attach a comic book character's name to it. Hence, Joker. Todd Phillips doesn't really care about the comic book universe, which really makes me question why he also includes elements like Harvey Dent.

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getting his two-face, you know, that was pretty interesting. Or the new Joker at the very last shot of this film slicing the Glasgow smile onto his face and everything like that. Those seem like Easter eggs for the fans, but it's clear that Todd Phillips also doesn't care about the fans. So he cares about the fans, but he doesn't care about the fans. Again, I'm confused. I think it's less about him caring for the fans and more about he probably has some kind of studio exec giving him notes on how to include comic book Easter eggs within his

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that would excite fans. Oh, yeah, I could see that for sure. So fucking mind boggling that studios like Sony and Warner Brothers get this shit wrong because literally it just seems so easy to give the fans what they want. I feel like so much commentary is out there by the fans on exactly what they're looking for, what their hopes are. And studios really just need to fucking do that and do nothing else. Studios really just need to fucking give me a call. I will tell them what they should do.

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Yeah, let's move on to our character breakdown. Now, Arthur Fleck, I'm not going to call him the Joker because clearly he's not. He was played by Joaquin Phoenix. I'm not sure I could say anything about his performance that I didn't say the first time around. It's perfect. It's perfection. I've seen some people say that he seemed lazy in this film, like he was just phoning it in or cashing a check. I didn't get that at all. Like, sure, Arthur is pretty timid at the beginning, but I also noticed that over the course of the film.

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more and more of the Joker character was brought back out in him up until the end when he rejected the idea of the Joker. No, I mean, well, Arthur Fleck is a sad character, so he's going to be mopey for a lot of this runtime. You know, he's in prison and the character of Harley Quinn starts kind of bringing him out of his shell. And I totally saw the difference between his pre-Harley Quinn state and his post-Harley Quinn state. So I definitely think that honestly, for such a terrible film, he still gave an Oscar caliber performance here.

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It's just gonna be sad that, you know, he's not gonna get any recognition for that because of how terrible the writing was at the end. Right. Yeah. Now, Arthur's arc in the first film was all about being seen. He felt invisible, like no one saw or cared about him, someone who was abused and needed help in a harsh world. It wasn't until he struck back, killing three men who had been beating him, that he started to get noticed and he thrived on that newfound attention. This sequel asks whether or not the Joker was an alternate persona.

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and we do get an answer from Arthur himself that Joker was simply an act, a mask of sorts that he was able to hide behind to do or say things under a guise of anonymity. But Arthur's mask becomes a symbol for the oppressed rising up against the elite, and it's a cause he never intended to start. And by the start of this film, he's largely removed from the fanaticism surrounding him until he meets Harley and his trial starts.

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In the same way that Arthur initially became drunk on the attention he received as Joker, Arthur in this film becomes intoxicated by Harley's infatuation with him and seemingly the perceived mission of the Joker. The guy's incredibly lonely and is tantalized by the prospect of a normal life with a family and in the end he chooses that over any kind of revolution. Arthur never wanted to change society, he wanted to be a part of it.

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and not be rejected by it as someone with mental illness. One of the reasons I feel this film is so pointless is that Arthur is so unbelievably tragic and you pity him and you hope for him and all of that hope is dashed. Yeah, he dies at the end. He gets stabbed and nothing happens. What the fuck? Yeah. He like dies basically alone and no one cares that we know of. It's just it's OK. Thanks. Thank you. Thanks a lot, Todd Phillips. You jerk.

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One of the biggest things that upset me about the film regarding the character of the Joker is trying to determine what the exact catalyst was for him turning his back on his made up persona. Now, there are a lot of events that happened that you could say served as that catalyst for his change of heart. Whether it was the testimony of Gary Puddles, his friend, or because his friend Ricky died who he had inspired.

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Or maybe it was because the guards beat the shit out of him and then raped him. Uh, which I was not okay with. Like I don't understand why they needed to include the scene. The idea that you can make the argument that the reason Joker changed his mind about everything was because he got sodomized just infuriates me. We don't know what the exact catalyst is, but the argument could be made that his rape caused this change of heart. Like I, I don't understand what kind of movie this is that would include something like that.

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I just didn't appreciate it as a fan of the character or as a fan of the first film. Or as a human being? Exactly. Yeah, it's not explicit what happens to him in the showers, although I think it's pretty clear what they were trying to imply. I for one though don't think that was the catalyst. I think ultimately what it was, was the death of Ricky. You saw Arthur lying there in his cell after what just happened to him and he's listening.

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to this guy who took a liking to Arthur and was definitely, like you said, inspired by him, die as a consequence of Arthur's actions riling up the inmates as the Joker, as a figure of someone who's standing up for himself. It gave Ricky a courage that he didn't have before, and he died because of it. But there was no clear indication that Arthur Fleck cared at all about Ricky. Well, there was a number of times that Ricky was the first to stand up for Arthur.

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He would sit next to him in the prison courtyard. And I think he had a closer relationship with Ricky than many of the other inmates, you could argue. And by nature, Arthur is a sympathetic guy. Like he cares about other people. And I think one of those people he did care about was Ricky because he liked him and Arthur likes people who like him. So I actually think it was that realization that the symbol of him could put innocence at risk.

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I think that was ultimately his decision. I'm not 100% on that. I'm sure other arguments could be made, but that's what I thought about. Because I was like, yeah, I was like, what happened? What was the catalyst? What changed his mind? And that was the conclusion I came to. Yeah, personally, I think it was the testimony of Gary Puddles. Even though right up until the moment he got the shit kicked out of him by the guards, he was still being honorary. He said to the guards, I guess I'm in trouble, joking around right before they did that to him.

33:44
Yeah, still making jokes like, Oh, aren't you going to buy me dinner first? Yeah. Which I know there's actually a number of jokes that were very dark like that one, like I hope you get cancer, things like that. You mentioned Arthur being ornery even after his questioning of Gary and leading up to him talking with the guards and stuff like that. He was actually ornery going all the way up to his closing arguments in front of the jury, pulling up the stool, grabbing the microphone like he was going to do a stand up bit. Even the judge saw that coming. So I was completely.

34:14
taken aback when he didn't do anything as noteworthy as his conversation with Marie Franklin from the first film. I thought all chaos was about to break loose like in that movie and it was the exact opposite. It wasn't a bang. It was a complete absolute whimper and one that I felt really betrayed by. Probably in the same way that Arthur felt betrayed by Lee. And speaking of which, let's move on to Harleen Quinzel played by Lady Gaga. I'm not a huge fan of Lady Gaga's music. I'm not really familiar with it.

34:43
But the mere fact that they cast a musician who can't act got me pretty excited when her casting was first announced. And I think she did a terrific job in the role. I don't think she's a better Harley Quinn than Margot Robbie, but I also think that's because of what was on the page. For as different as they made Harley Quinn in this movie, I also think Lady Gaga did a great job capturing the crazy slash dangerous aspect of the character.

35:08
She was as interesting in the role as Joaquin Phoenix is as the Joker. I found it really fascinating what they did with the character and it had so much potential, so much promise. The crazy was palpable. 100%. And I appreciated that for sure. Now in the comics, Harley was a psychiatrist at Arkham who was manipulated by the Joker into falling in love with him and becoming a henchwoman for him to abuse. This film is sort of the opposite of that. Arthur Fleck isn't confident enough to entice a romantic partner.

35:38
But Harley, or Lee as she's called in this film, is crazy enough to check herself into a mental institution just to get close to Joker. It's mentioned that she did postgraduate work in psychiatry, and I'd like to think that simply by studying Arthur Fleck's case, she pitied him and empathized with him to the point that she took on his worldview. And that's the whole reason behind the title of Folly Ado.

36:03
But that backstory is never explored, so I may just be giving the film too much credit. You know, Folly I Do refers to a shared delusional disorder. And outside of my headcanon, I can't think of what else the title would be in context to in the film. I mean, that's a great headcanon, but it's also one that the film doesn't deserve, because if the film was better and smarter, they would have done exactly that. Exactly. Now, Harley met Arthur while she was in music therapy class, and she uses song

36:33
manipulate him, drawing out the Joker from Arthur like a Gotham City siren, with the intention of helping the Joker usher in a new world, seemingly, though it's not clear why. Maybe it was out of guilt for her affluent upbringing, or maybe she knew some kind of ugly underbelly within the elite world that helped her identify with Arthur's victimization. It's a huge mystery, and one that should have been expanded upon.

36:59
Yeah, what did she mean by we're going to build a mountain? Now, I know it was a reference to a song, but I have no idea what the metaphor was in reference to in the context of this film. I was thinking that it was going to be like a literal pile of corpses that they were going to build this new world upon. And so my expectations were completely dashed. Yeah, same. Instead of a mountain, it was more like a pile of shit, you know, we're going to build a pile of shit, apparently. At the end of the film, when Arthur has given up the act of the Joker, Harley tries singing to him again.

37:29
And when he's like, no, stop singing. I just want to talk. I think that's when she realizes that she can't manipulate him anymore. And so she abandons him like everyone else has. Possibly. At the end of the film, Arthur is informed that he has a visitor waiting for him. And that's when he's killed. Do you think that visitor was Harley? Did she have a change of heart? That's a good question. I don't know who else it could possibly be. Maybe it was his former lawyer. Those are the only two people I can think of. Well, it could have been Gary. Oh, yeah.

37:58
That's true. I think Gary was too afraid of Arthur, though, to do that, in my opinion. Possibly. But he was still, I think, like the closest thing he had to a friend, maybe. So, yeah, it was probably either Harley or his lawyer. And in that sense, maybe there is sort of like this romantic tragedy at the very end. But we'll never know. Yeah. Fuck it. Who cares? Damn it. It's all pointless. Let's move on to the story highlights.

38:32
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38:51
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39:18
Now the film opens with an animated, Looney Tunes-esque cartoon sequence showing Arthur Fleck arrive at the Marie Franklin show, only to be beaten and impersonated by his shadow who acts on Arthur's worst impulses, humiliates him, and leaves Arthur to take the rap, a victim of his shadow, and police brutality. In the real world, Arthur is medicated and imprisoned in the criminal wing of Arkham State Hospital, where he awaits trial for the murder of five people two years prior.

39:48
While imprisoned, he's abused and ridiculed by the security guards for their amusement, as his ordeal was made into a made-for-TV film and has made him a minor public celebrity. On his way to meet his lawyer, Mary Ann Stewart, Arthur is escorted past a music therapy class where he first encounters a patient named Harleen Quinzel, aka Lee. While meeting with Mary Ann, she explains her hopes that they can argue Arthur has dissociative identity disorder and is mentally unfit to be held accountable for his crimes.

40:17
having can meet with a psychologist to gather evidence for her case. Now, the animated opening was an interesting surprise. It was actually created by the same studio that did the triplets of Belleville, which is a fantastic animated film. Yeah, I was really taken back by the opening. I thought it was pretty clever, actually. I just like cartoons, you know, and the idea of having the movie open with a cartoon kind of brought me back to, you know, the 1989.

40:42
VHS copy of the Batman movie that you had with Bugs Bunny and Duffy Duck and I don't know if this was an homage to that per se but it was At least an interesting way at the very least to open your film. That's right You can't watch your Warner Brothers movie with our Warner Brothers ballcat Now regarding Arthur's trial for the murder of five victims

41:05
I was trying to count in my head the five victims. Now we knew that he killed the three people on the subway, that he killed the clown who bullied him. And we know that he killed Murray Franklin live on TV. So right away, I was like frustrated thinking that they had got the number wrong because we knew that he killed his mom. And I was under the assumption that he did kills as a beats character from the first Joker film. So I had my number at seven. I was actually higher than that because I assumed he killed the psychiatrist lady at the end of the movie as well. Right, right, right.

41:35
Yeah, I was wondering about her too, and then I was surprised to see that, you know, he didn't kill the psychiatrist at the end of The First Joker. Yeah, so this film actually answered quite a number of questions as to who was killed in the first movie and who wasn't. I'm actually pretty happy that Zazie Beats and her daughter were not killed. Right. Yeah, because I think we described her state as kind of like a Schrodinger's cat type situation. You know, she was neither alive nor dead until the movie chose to reveal that fact, and here they did.

42:03
What is your theory as to what the hell is up with Brandon Gleason's character? Like, he obviously wasn't a nice guy. They kind of portrayed him as a fairly straightforward prison guard who was an asshole, right? But he wasn't always an asshole. It was really hard to crack his character, I found. He wasn't consistent in the slightest. I think he just enjoyed being entertained by Arthur. I think he enjoyed kind of the celebrity of Arthur. I was just kind of semi-fascinated by that. The fact that he had power over someone who was a celebrity.

42:32
That's what I got. He almost wanted to tease Arthur by taking him to the music classes, but also it was kind of just an excuse for him to sing as well, because the dude loved to sing. Now, after Jackie Sullivan, a security guard known for singing, gets Arthur to kiss a fellow criminal inmate named Ricky for the guard's amusement, Jackie informs Arthur that he signed him up for a music therapy class due to his good behavior. During his first session, Lee tells Arthur that she was forced into the mental care facility by her mother,

43:02
after setting fire to an apartment building, that she lives in the same neighborhood he did, that her father died, and that she's a big fan of the movie they made of Arthur's crimes. Arthur, beguiled by Lee, confesses to her that he actually killed six people, including his mother. Upon his return to the hospital's criminal wing, Arthur learns that district attorney Harvey Dent is seeking the death penalty for Arthur's crimes, sending Arthur into an

43:29
before succumbing to a fit of uncontrollable laughter in reality. The song that played while all the inmates were watching TV made me realize, oh, Joaquin Phoenix is not a great singer, at least not in the musical theater type of sense. Oh yeah, I don't know if he's ever been a stage performer, but I could see where he hasn't.

43:52
He has been in a band though, I know that. Yeah, yeah. I don't remember if he was the lead singer or not though. But not every lead singer in a band can be in a musical. It's just a different type of voice training really. True. So it was kind of awkward hearing him sing in this moment and being like, oh shit, no. Yeah, that's harsh. I didn't think he was that bad. Now the scene after that where he was crying out on the rain really communicated the message that he is afraid of dying. He does not want to receive the death penalty at the hands of the state.

44:22
Yeah, that was a pretty powerful scene and brought up an interesting theme of the fear of mortality. But it wasn't one that was really expanded upon too much more considering that Arthur had something to live for now. That was Lee. Mm hmm. I do think perhaps that scene was misplaced. I think it was just a really powerful performance by Joaquin Phoenix and they had to put it somewhere. And so they put it there. I don't think that's the only place you could have put it, though.

44:49
Honestly, I would have saved that for the very, very end after Lee dumped him and he was back in Arkham. That would have been perfect. Absolutely. Now during a movie screening of the 1954 musical The Bandwagon for the musical therapy animates, Lee sets fire to a piano to get Arthur's attention, and the two escape the hospital building alone, singing and dancing together and capturing the attention of press outside the hospital who wanted Arthur to comment on his upcoming trial. After the two are captured by the hospital guards,

45:19
Arthur is placed in solitary confinement, where he dreams of dancing with Lee upon the Gotham rooftops. Upon awakening from a dream, Arthur finds Lee beside him, claiming one of the guards let her in, and she informs him that the hospital is sending her home because he's a bad influence on her. While painting his face with Joker makeup, she encourages him to stop taking his medication, promising that they'll build a mountain and be together.

45:46
when his trial is over before the two have sex in Arthur's cell. Now, I totally thought that this was a scene that was all in Arthur's head, because no way in hell did I ever think that a prison guard would let another mental patient into Arthur's cell for a conjugal visit or anything like that, you know? It just didn't make sense. It wasn't until we hear Lee speaking to reporters about how they're going to build a mountain referencing the line that she had previously told him in the cell that I realized, okay, so maybe that did happen.

46:15
It still just doesn't make any sense to me. Well, I didn't realize it until she told him that she was pregnant. And I was like, oh, wait, so that was real, what? I guess if he was gonna make up a love scene between him and Lee, that he probably would have performed better, is what I'll say. Hey man, it was probably his first time, he did his best. That's true, that's true.

46:38
This musical number where they're dancing on the rooftops was actually my favorite musical scene. You know, you have Lady Gaga silhouetted against the full moon and you have the sign on the rooftop that says Arkham Hotel. I just thought it was beautifully rendered. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, the dancing was fantastic. There was actually no singing in that scene. But yeah, it was great as a dream sequence. Now, in an attempt to garner public support for Arthur and the argument that he has a split personality.

47:05
Mary Ann schedules a live television interview with a sensationalist journalist named Patty Myers, who riles Arthur up into singing about his love for Lee. The next day, Arthur arrives at the courthouse with hundreds of protesters outside, both for and against him. While Harvey and Mary Ann question several mental professionals in regards to the possibility of Arthur's split personality, Lee shows up late to the trial and argues with Mary Ann in front of the press,

47:32
about how her approach is making Arthur look bad for his fans. After advocating for more involvement from Lee, Arthur learns from Marianne while back in his cell that Lee has been lying to him, that she actually grew up with wealthy parents who are still alive, studied postgraduate psychology, and checked herself in and out of Arkham willingly. When Lee visits Arthur and he confronts her, she confesses to everything but convinces him that she still loves him, that she's moved into his old home.

48:02
and that she's pregnant with his child. The Patty Meyers interview with actor Steve Coogan, I thought was going to be a much bigger thing than it was in the actual movie. I thought Steve Coogan's life was going to be threatened in some way. I'm not sure why, but I also thought this was like the weirdest musical performance of the entire movie. Yeah, I was actually surprised Patty just let his interview essentially become a music video. You know, the cameras were zooming in on Arthur as he was singing and everything like that and the whole thing just totally got derailed.

48:32
It's things like that, like that moment and even the judge letting Joker wear makeup in the courtroom and stuff like that, that just add this surreal, unbelievable quality to the film that just didn't ring true and was kind of annoying. Well, another thing similar to that was during the Patty interview when Lee was watching from outside a department store window with televisions. She's rich. Go inside. Buy the TV. You don't need to break the window.

49:01
grab the TV and then walk away and get away with it. Like people saw you do that. Yeah, I'm surprised nobody confronted her about it. I was actually pretty excited when I saw Ken Lung, a psychiatrist up on the stand as one of the expert witnesses for the prosecution. I thought that was Hugo Strange because I totally didn't hear them say his name during the movie. But after doing my research, it turns out that's Dr. Victor Liu. So that was...

49:28
I feel like a wasted opportunity. When Marianne calls Arthur's old neighbor and romantic crush Sophie Dumond to the stand, Arthur is reminded of past childhood trauma while learning the hurtful truth of how his mother expressed her feelings toward him to others. Enraged and humiliated, Arthur fires Marianne, and that evening, the prisoners riot as they cheer on Arthur for standing up to authority. The next day, Arthur represents himself at the trial while wearing Joker makeup.

49:57
While questioning his former co-worker, Gary Puddles, on the stand, Arthur argues that those who he killed deserved to die. Gary reveals to Arthur, however, that his actions have more victims than just the men who hurt Arthur. Victims like Gary, who witnessed one of the murders and is still traumatized by it. After Harvey rests his case, Arthur refuses to call any more witnesses in his defense.

50:22
instead chastising society and insulting the hospital guards, after which Arthur leaves the courtroom with Lee and the two fantasize about getting married. The Gary Puddles questioning I thought was a really powerful scene in the movie. I'm not sure why WKF decided to go with the Southern accent for the Joker in this scene, but to me it wasn't necessarily as important as him breaking character when he was realizing what Gary was saying was true.

50:52
I think he was just kind of emulating some of the more popular Southern lawyers in the vein of like Gose of Mississippi or the Lincoln lawyer or something like that. I don't think it was necessary because I don't think that like Southern lawyer archetype is broadly known, but I do think that the Gary Puddles questioning was the strongest scene of the film. Yeah, one of them for sure. I totally agree. The judge in this trial just fucking sucked though, man. Like, why the hell did he not

51:20
put Arthur Fleck in contempt of court, or at least, you know, like silence him when he was going off on his rant. I guess it didn't matter if he held him in contempt because he's already in prison and everything like that, but he should have called for order so many more times than he did in the course of this trial. Yeah, 100% he should have. I thought it was weird how they had that sequence of Joker and Harley getting married. Like, why include that if it's not going to happen? I understand you want to show maybe Joaquin Phoenix fantasizing about that.

51:48
But he did it after a moment when he ran off with Lee. So it's almost like it was a shared fantasy between them. When, if there was a shared fantasy between them, why didn't they get married in real life? There's probably no opportunity to. I think you could marry someone who's locked up. All you have to do is sign papers. Don't ask me, man. Now upon returning to Arkham, Joker is assaulted, seemingly sexually, by the guards in the hospital showers.

52:14
After being dragged back to his cell, Arthur listens as the inmate Ricky gets riled up and is strangled to death by the guards. The next day in the courtroom, Arthur prepares to go on a tirade during his closing remarks to the jury, blaming society for his life and actions, but instead he confesses that it wasn't an alternate personality that killed those people, that the Joker persona isn't something he grapples with or a rebellious cause of the disenfranchised that he wants to champion. Enraged,

52:43
Lee storms out of the courtroom and returns home, where she seemingly attempts suicide as Arthur leaves a voicemail expressing his feelings for her. That was strange. Like, super strange. I don't understand why they had that attempted suicide scene with Harley if they didn't address it in any way, shape or form later on. It just seemed kind of random. It feels like there was a missing scene. Yeah, that's what it feels like. Like, why didn't she go through with it? Why did she give herself a haircut?

53:12
Why was she just like hanging out on the steps? Was she waiting for Arthur? Was she responsible for the bomb? Yeah. No idea. My guess is that she struggled with pulling the trigger, decided not to cut her hair, and let the Joker go from her life. Basically deciding that this facade of a guy was not worth killing herself over. That's like another headcanon piece regarding the character of Harley Quinn that they should have shown in the movie, and they didn't. So many better scenes could have been included in this film other than these musical numbers that were just totally unnecessary.

53:41
100% Absolutely. That is the truthiest truth that has been truth on this review. Now when the jury reads their guilty verdict, Arthur begins laughing uncontrollably, causing a member of one of the victim's families to attack him. In the chaos of the courtroom, a random car bomb explodes outside the courthouse, injuring many in the courtroom, including scarring one half of Harvey's face. When a dazed Arthur stumbles out of the rubble into the street,

54:09
He encounters a man dressed as Joker, who helps him get into his friend's car. As the two drive away discussing how Arthur is going to help bring to a head a societal revolution, Arthur escapes the vehicle and eventually makes his way to the steps outside of his old apartment, where he finds Lee, still alive, but with a new haircut. Rather than flee with Arthur, Lee tells him it's over between them and that their relationship was only ever a fantasy, while cops surround them and take Arthur back to Arkham.

54:40
The next day, Arthur is informed by a guard that he has a visitor, and as he goes to see who it is, he's stopped by another unnamed inmate who had been observing him throughout the film, who tells a joke expressing his disappointment in Arthur for giving up the Joker persona before stabbing Arthur repeatedly in the stomach. Then, laughing, uses the blade to slice a smile into his cheeks. As Arthur lays on the ground bleeding and dying,

55:07
A smile forms on his face just before he passes. Okay, you covered a lot of ground there. Going back to the bomb, you said it was a random car bomb that went off. I don't think it was random, but I'm wondering who even set the bomb. Like where did the bomb come from? Were they trying to kill Arthur Fleck for disavowing the Joker or were they trying to free him or what was the point of it all? Oh, that's a good question. I never considered that someone might actually be trying to kill Arthur. That's valid.

55:35
It's random in the sense that we don't know why it went off or who set it off, essentially. At first I thought maybe it was the people who rescued him, but that wouldn't make sense necessarily. It's almost like the guy in the Joker makeup had no idea what was going on with the trial because him and his buddy were talking about how Arthur Fleck was going to change the world and everything like that, but he had just got done disavowing the Joker, right? I want to know why everyone seemingly got horribly injured in this blast.

56:04
and yet Joker, who was pretty close to it, was not. That's a great question. It felt inconsistent. Friggin' Harvey Dent got his face all fucked up. That was actually a pretty neat moment, I thought. That was cool, that was cool. I like the actor who played Harvey Dent. I agree, I liked the choice that they went with. I liked his voice, he did a fantastic job. Now, as I mentioned earlier, there are set photos that were taken while filming was occurring of Harley pushing.

56:30
Arthur down the steps and that's what I thought was going to happen. It should have happened. Yeah, possibly. Either that or they went off together, but I totally thought that Harley was going to kill Joker in that moment. I've seen people say that the man who kills Arthur at the end is the Dark Knight's Heath Ledger's Joker. This is obviously not the same universe as The Dark Knight considering we have different origin stories for Harvey Dent and the death of the Waynes.

56:59
Right. Oh, yeah, this is totally not Heath Ledger's Joker. I think maybe they were trying to reference that version of the Joker. But no, there are too many discrepancies between this universe that Arthur Fleck exists in and the Dark Knight's continuity. And after this movie, I don't want them to be related. Like this movie already kind of ruined the first Joker movie. Don't let it ruin the Dark Knight trilogy as well. Now, we've been bashing on this film for.

57:27
the whole duration of this review basically. I do want to emphasize though that for the most part, I thought the film was really well made and I liked it up until the final moments. Because once Arthur disavowed the Joker, the film was essentially anti-climax after anti-climax after yet another anti-climax. And therefore unbelievably disappointing as a comic fan or the lover of story in general. I think the film's

57:56
craze-worthy performances and gorgeous cinematography just can't salvage the poor punchline of an ending in this ultimately disappointing follow-up to the original, which again was fantastic. I really, really wanted to give this film three stars, but upon doing this review, I realized I can't in good conscience do that. I liked the movie up until the final act for the most part, but

58:23
There are a lot of problems throughout the film, not just in the final act. So I'm giving it two and a half out of five stars, a rotten rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah, I think I would go along that route too. Two and a half sounds fair. You know, it's an F rating. Definitely not recommended. Definitely getting a rotten tomato from me. I just can't believe how disappointed I was walking out of the theater.

58:48
Dude, and that being even from someone who didn't have the highest of expectations for the film regardless, it just on so many levels was not the movie that it should have been. It didn't live up to its potential set up by the first film or even, you know, its premise. And that's one of the most tragic things about this story. But you know what? As long as people saw the first one, they don't need to see this one. This one, as far as I'm concerned, is dead to me. I don't ever want to talk about it again.

59:17
Warner Brothers had one job this year, one job, put out a good DC movie, and they blew it. And that, kind of in a twisted way, makes me happy, because an L for DC is a W for Marvel, as far as I'm concerned. This is an L for the comic book genre, because this was supposed to be yet another film that elevated it to the point of it winning accolades amongst the broader Hollywood industry.

59:44
So yeah, you should not have a smile on your face. We should all have our upside down Joker faces on. No, I think the success of Deadpool and Wolverine is still riding pretty high. Although, you know, that may entirely change if the Venom movie really sucks that's coming out in a few weeks and if Craven really sucks. We may be in dire straits here as far as the genre is concerned. I hate to tell you this, but Deadpool and Wolverine is not winning any Oscars. I don't care. You should.

01:00:12
You want the box office saying so many people saw it. So many people loved it. So the Joker is just a moot point. But it's more than that. It's way more than that, unfortunately. Its failure, I think, is a massive blow to what James Gunn and Peter Seifert and want to do with DC Studios. It just it's that's funny, too, though. Oh, fuck you. Whatever, dude, whatever. I'm done with this review. AJ, help close this out.

01:00:42
Thanks for listening to Dynamic duel. Visit the show's website at dynamicduel.com and follow us on Instagram at dynamicduelpodcast. You can support the show on Patreon at patreon.com slash dynamicduel and joining a tier that works for you, or by rating and reviewing Dynamic duel on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podchaser or on our website. Don't forget to listen to the other shows in the DynaMic Podcast Network, including Max Destruction, Senjow World and Console Combat.

01:01:12
In our next episode as part of Spooktober, we will be doing a duel between Clarion the Witch Boy and Agatha Harkness. It's a witch on witch battle. And which witch is going to win? We'll find out next week. But that does it for this episode. We want to give a big thanks to our executive producers. Ken Johnson, John Swarovski, Zachary Hepburn, Dustin Balcom, Mickey Mathengian, Brandon Estregard, Nathaniel Wagner, Levi Yeaton, Austin Wazilowski, AJ Dunkerley, Scott Camacho,

01:01:41
Andrew Schunk, Dean Molesky, Devin Davis, Joseph Kirsting, and Josh Leiner for helping make this podcast possible. We'll talk to you guys next week. Up up and away, true believers.