Lobo vs Carnage

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Hi, welcome to the Dynamic Duel Podcast, a weekly show where we review superhero films and debate the superiority between Marvel and DC by comparing their characters and stat-based battle simulations. I'm Marvelous Joe. And I'm his twin brother, Johnny DC. And in this episode, we're going to find out who'd win in a fight between Lobo and Carnage. Now, Lobo is a big-time DC character, probably overdue for a duel on this podcast. Yeah, yeah, he's the main man. But, you know, Carnage is overdue as well.

00:49
Oh yeah, he's a fascinating character, big time Spider-Man villain, and of course he's gonna be in a movie coming out next week, Venom Let There Be Carnage. So we thought this was the perfect time to put these two characters in a duel. They're both hyper-violent, they both have insane healing factors, they're both incredibly strong. I think it's gonna be a pretty good matchup. Yeah, it's gonna be crazy violent, it's gonna be good times. Before we get into that matchup and run the simulations to see who would win, we're gonna go over the comic book movie news that have come out in the past week. Just a couple of trailers though for DC.

01:18
We got our first look at Netflix's The Sandman series, and we're gonna talk about the Injustice red band trailer. As always, we list our segment times in our episode description, so feel free to check out the show notes if you wanna skip ahead to a particular topic. And just a reminder, guys, that only the most recent four episodes are available to the listening public if you guys want access to over 200 episodes of archived content, including Blue Beetle versus Spider-Man, our Spider-Man Homecoming review, Clayface versus Venom, our Watchmen Season One review,

01:48
Orion vs Silver Surfer Or our Green Lantern Emerald Nights review. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast on Spotify or Patreon, both of which will provide you with an RSS feed to use in your own podcast app. On Patreon, you also get bonus content including bonus episodes, access to our Discord server, blooper reels, and more. It's only $2 a month to subscribe on Spotify or Patreon, and you can do so by visiting DynamicDuel.com slash subscribe.

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which is also linked in our show notes. And we wanna give a big shout out to our newest patrons, Hills and Noah B. Sweeney. Noah, in fact, was one of our very first listeners way back in the day in 2016 when we first started doing the show. So it's great to have him on board as a patron now. Yeah guys, thanks for signing up. And I wanna give a quick disclaimer. If I sound a little bit echoey, it's because I'm recording in a new space that hasn't been soundproofed yet. So I think my voice is just bouncing all over the walls here. So sorry to our listeners for that. I'll be sure to get it taken care of.

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before the next time we record. But with that out of the way, quick to the no prize. A no prize is an award that Marvel used to give out up until the nineties to fans. Our version, the dynamic dual no prize, is a digital award that we post on social media that I personally draw for those who we feel gave the best answer to our question of the week. Last week's question tied into the first trailer we got for the upcoming Hawkeye Disney Plus television series, which turned out to be a Christmas series. So we asked,

03:15
What's your favorite holiday and how would your favorite superheroes celebrate it? We got a few honorable mentions, so let's go ahead and run down them as well as the no prize winner. Our first honorable mention goes to DC Joe, who said, What up guys, my favorite holiday is Christmas and how would my favorite superhero celebrate it?

03:32
Well, he would make sure that everybody in Central City would have a present under the tree and probably stop at every house to carol That's right the flash specifically Barry Allen And that's a pretty interesting answer considering. I think Barry Allen is canonically Jewish So, you know the fact that he would spread so much christmas cheer is really good on him Yeah, I mean if anybody has the ability to play santa claus on christmas It's going to be the flash who can you know run around the world in under a second, right? He could definitely deliver

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all the toys to all the boys and girls out there. Yeah, yeah, good answer. Our next honorable mention goes to Jeff Miles Jr. who said, Hey, John and Joe, it's Jeff Miles or Hefe Miles on Instagram. My favorite holiday is definitely Christmas. It's time of joy. I get to travel home and see my family and the superhero I would love to see celebrate that is the Flash, man. He could go all the way back to DC to see my family real quick.

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you know, and he eats a lot because he needs to keep up with his super, you know, superpowers. So definitely Flash Christmas. All right. Yeah. Another Flash Christmas answer. Makes sense though. You know, again, not only can he deliver all the toys to all the good boys and girls out there, he can also visit his family real easily. Although, you know, I mean, could have gone quick silver with this one. He's fast. No, no, Flash. He has the red and gold costume. All he's missing is green to be like super Christmasy infested.

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Our final honorable mention goes to Miggy Mathengian who said, Hey guys, this is Miggy. My favorite holiday is Christmas and my favorite superhero Flash would celebrate it by making his annual visit to the Central City Orphanage where he would continue his tradition of getting the kids any toy they want and along the way he would fight Ultra Humanite and teach him the real meaning of Christmas. If you didn't realize, this is all from the Justice League animated episode, Comfort and Joy. Okay, so now all of these Flash Christmas answers start to make sense.

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Yeah, who sent the memo out there for everybody to watch the Justice League animated Christmas special? Because you all base your answer off of the Flash celebrating Christmas for some reason. I don't think I've seen that episode, but it must have really struck a chord with a lot of people who viewed it. Just like, good feelings, good times. I love it. Quick note, actually, everyone who answered the question of the week this time gave a DC answer for their favorite hero. So, Marvel fans, you guys need to show up. Yeah, where you guys at?

05:58
Where my boys at and my girls. So many Marvel heroes out there celebrate the holidays, so it would have been great to hear about it. But we wanna give a quick shout out to Dustin Balcom, who gave the answer of Christmas, but with Superman. And it doesn't get more wholesome than that. That was a great answer, thanks to Dustin Balcom. The winner of this week's snow prize, I swear to God, if it's flash Christmas, goes to Michael Harald, who said. Hey guys, so personally, my favorite's Christmas.

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But I think Halloween would be a lot more fun to read a Harley Quinn story of. Just watch her picking on all the people dressed up as superheroes and getting crazy on seeing people dressed up as the Joker. And then going to a bar and heading on and trying to pick herself up when she sees a bunch of girls dressed up as Harley Quinn. I thought he was going to go Christmas for a second there, but he saved it with Halloween. Nice twist! I'm sure it's a confusing time for any superhero to see.

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Everyone dressed up like other superheroes. Or maybe even super villains. Like the Joker. Maybe not so much as popular a costume choice in the actual DC universe considering he's real there and everyone's terrified of him. But you know, I can still see a lot of women dressing up as Harley Quinn. It's like one of the most popular Halloween costumes in real life. That's true. I'm sure Harley would love to see that. She'd be like, girls night out. And then subsequently get most of them arrested. Yeah, exactly.

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Congrats again to Michael Harreld for winning this week's No Prize. If you the listener want a shot at winning your own No Prize, stay tuned to later on this episode when we'll be asking another question of the week. And now that that's done, on to the news!

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Okay, this past week Netflix had their own version of like the DC fandom called Netflix's Tadum. Total ripoff! Everyone rips off DC, whatever. They debuted a whole bunch of trailers for upcoming shows including The Sandman. This was our first look at it and it's pretty brief, it's really just a teaser, but it's like shot by shot almost a scene from the first comic, like some of the opening pages. It was so cool to see this brought into live action.

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We get to see Charles Dance from Game of Thrones play Roderick Burgess, this occultist who's trying to summon Death, but he gets Dream instead, and that's the setup for the entire series. He doesn't play like the biggest role in the comic, so I'm sure they're gonna beef up the role a little bit more considering it's fucking Charles Dance, and he's a great actor, so I'm curious to see what kind of changes they're gonna make to the story. But so far, there are shots in this teaser that are like straight panels from the comic.

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Like the overhead shot of like the circle in which Dream is like laying with his helmet and stuff like that. It's so amazing. I wanted to weep the first time I saw this. It's so glorious. Now what's with the helmet? What's the story behind that? Oh, it's just a helmet that Morpheus created. I think it was like an alien god skull that he created it from. He imparted some of his power into that helmet as well as the ruby that you see and the bag of sand that is also in the trailer. Interesting.

09:07
Yeah, that's pretty cool looking. Yeah, each of those artifacts get taken by Roderick Burgess. And like the first storyline from the comic is Sandman trying to recollect those pieces of himself, essentially to regain more of his power because he was trapped for so long. And we get to see Tom Sturridge as Dream trapped in this glass sphere within Roderick Burgess's basement. It's so cool to see Dream for the first time. He looks pretty spot on. What's the actor's name? Tom Sturridge. He looks great. Like almost a one to one.

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Translation from the comics, you know, his eyes aren't all black and his skin isn't as pale as it is in the comic But I love it. I think it totally works. I think this is gonna be a hit show for Netflix We have no idea when it's coming out yet. They have not announced a release date It can't be soon enough though, because I just once I saw this I was like I need this now If you haven't read Neil Gaiman's Sandman series yet pick that shit up cuz that stuff is like among the best literary Works I've ever read

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You and I recently did a bonus episode for our patrons where we listed our top 10 favorite storylines And for me Sandman was number two on that list like whatever you're reading right now It's garbage compared to this just set that down pick this up. You won't regret it. Are you gonna read it? I mean it's DC. I'm not gonna read it. Of course not. Why would you even ask that question? Obviously? I'm not gonna read it I'll read a series about spider-man's villain the Sandman and call it good. Okay, I read Sandman guys. I read it

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In other DC trailer news, we got the Red Band trailer for the animated film Injustice. We got a trailer a few weeks ago for this film and I was kind of underwhelmed by it. This was the trailer I wanted from the get-go. Yeah, because it's violent. It actually shows the hardcore death of the Joker and just how crazy Superman gets. Oh yeah, totally. I mean, if you're not familiar with the comic or the video game, you probably don't know yet what the Joker does to cause Superman.

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to essentially rip his heart out, but it's crazy. It's brutal. And you know, it raises this great like moral dilemma amongst the entire superhero community. And I love the way they set up this whole ethical conflict amongst the superheroes and the voiceover lines that we hear as we see the different characters pop up on screen in this trailer. Yeah, a lot of valid perspectives here. I really like Green Lantern's approach where he's like Superman, you suffered this, you know, unfathomable loss. You need time to process it.

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whatever decisions you're making right now are going to be based in emotion and grief and everything. You need time, a more clear perspective. Yeah, yeah, we get to hear from Green Lantern, Shazam, Batman, Green Arrow, Robin, Wonder Woman. Everyone is in this movie and it looks like there's so much that goes on in here. This feels like it's gonna be like a three-hour movie. I have no idea how long it's actually going to be, but there's a lot of stuff to get through in this film.

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It does look like it's starting to shape up to be as good as Justice League Dark Apocalypse War, which is like the best DC animated film of all time, in my opinion. Yeah, that was really good. We gave that a five-star review. If you haven't seen it yet, definitely check that out. But I agree, this looks like it might be as good as that film, just based on this trailer alone. But we got to manage our expectations. Yes. Right now, we're just going to say it looks okay. We'll see what happens, you know? Could be bad, could be good. You know what's almost kind of bittersweet about this?

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is that this whole storyline sort of inspired Zack Snyder's take on the DCEU, right? So it's like this is almost what we could have gotten if Warner Brothers would have just let him do what he wanted to do and people like didn't freak out over the direction he was heading. I would have loved to have seen this play out in live action. It probably would have came across as kind of a rehash of Batman v Superman, but I think it would have been a good story nonetheless. Yeah, now we'll probably never ever get to see that in live action.

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because of the whole kind of BVS retread and who knows what's going on with the future of the DCEU but I'm glad we at least get this storyline in this animated form for people who haven't played the game or read the comics which they should do if you haven't maybe, I don't know, maybe just watch the movie, we'll see we'll let you know yeah we'll be reviewing this movie when it comes out next month in October but in regards to Superman killing Joker during this trailer and seeing Batman's just sort of horrified expression about what just happened

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That brings us to our question of the week.

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Should Batman have killed the Joker in the comics? Why or why not? Yeah, this is a huge ethical question that Jonathan and I have gone back and forth on for years now. Jonathan's like on the side of Batman where he's like, no, you can't kill the Joker. And I'm like, no, no, no, Joker does too much shit. It's a crime not to kill him. So we want to see where you guys stand. No right or wrong answers here, but let's hear what you have to say. Record your answer at

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which will prompt you to leave us a voicemail. Your message could be up to 30 seconds long, and don't forget to leave your name in case we include you on the podcast. We'll pick our favorite answer and draw that person a dynamic duel no prize that we'll post to social media. Be sure to answer before October 2nd. But I think that does it for all the news for this episode, so let's go ahead and get into our main event where we find out who'd win in a fight between the intergalactic bounty hunter Lobo and the Spider-Man villain Carnage.

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All right, Lobo versus Carnage. This is gonna be a bloody good episode. These guys are like probably the most violent characters in the respective DC and Marvel universes. Oh yeah. That was the primary reason why we wanted to put these two against each other because not only do they have like similar power sets and that they're both super strong and have super powerful healing factors, they both have a variety of weapons at their disposal to take on their opponent. And they do so gleefully.

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Oh, totally. Usually when people request matchups for Lobo, they either say, you know, we should pit him against Deadpool or Ghost Rider or Wolverine. Those characters have not only already gone up against other, I think better matchups on this podcast. I personally think Lobo would stomp all of them, maybe not Ghost Rider. Yeah, it was kind of hard to find a character in Marvel that would be a good matchup for him, considering that we've already used Ghost Rider in a duel against Etrichan. But I think Carnage has a really good shot at beating this dude.

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You take a shot at the main man, you better not miss. You fraggin' bastitch. Take it easy. Calm down. Don't get into character just yet. All right, all right, all right. So if you've never listened to one of our dual episodes before, the way we determine a winner between these two characters is by running 1,000 Monte Carlo simulations using their statistics. Now, a Monte Carlo simulation is a probabilistic model used to determine outcomes through random sampling.

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In our case, it randomizes statistics along a normal distribution, which is a bell curve, as a way to simulate the many variables that can occur during battle. The stat parameters we use are based on the official Marvel power grid, and we use that criteria to extrapolate the DC character's stats. We've included some additional stat categories of our own, such as range, damage potential, versatility, and perception, in order to create a more complete and robust simulation.

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And running these 1000 simulations gives us a percentage of wins for each character, and we declare the one with the higher percentage to be the ultimate victor, considering that they're more likely to win any given battle. No character ever wins 100% of the time, comics have shown that there's always a way for Batman to defeat Superman, we feel our method falls in line with the precedents that have been established in the comic book stories. And we use this method because it was the least subjective, most unbiased way to determine who would win.

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Of course, we are both heavily biased toward our respective allegiances, and instead of debating these matches forever, we just let the math decide for us. So there's no fan votes here, and no relying on just feats. Before we run the simulations though, we like to break down each character's histories and abilities before improvising a scenario on how we imagine one of the 1000 simulations we run would play out beat for beat. And I think it's my turn to go first with my character's backstory.

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So let me tell you all about the main man, Lobo. Now Lobo, whose name roughly translates to one who devours your entrails and thoroughly enjoys it, was born on the peaceful utopian planet of Zarnia, whose citizens were immortal enlightened pacifists. When Lobo was born, he bit off the nurse's fingers, and from that point onward, remained a sociopathic blight on the planet that had forgotten how to punish or discipline.

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literally letting Lobo get away with murder. For all of their dedication to science, the Zarnians had no explanation for Lobo's behavior other than demonic possession, though in reality, Lobo was the result of the universe trying to balance millennia's worth of good-natured behavior by the Zarnians. Intellectually gifted from a young age, Lobo developed an airborne parasitic virus as a science project that quickly yet painfully killed everyone else on his planet.

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making him the last of his race. He gave himself an A on the project, and eventually left the barren planet to travel the cosmos, using his innate ability to track anything or anyone to become the universe's most feared bounty hunter. During the Citadel Wars, the leader of the Citadel, an intergalactic fascist empire, hired Lobo to kidnap Callista, a princess of the planet Euphorix and a member of a space-faring team of freedom fighters known as the Omega Men.

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Lobo successfully captured her, but was later hired by Calista's husband, Primus, the leader of the Omega Men, to free many of the Citadel's prisoners, including Calista. Lobo agreed, and killed the leader of the Citadel in the process. Lobo, whose only love in life is his nigh-extinct space dolphin pets, was later paid by an intergalactic villain named Manga Khan in Dolphin Treats to kill the Justice League

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until Manga Khan canceled his contract. When one of Lobo's space dolphins was killed, Lobo tracked the killer to Legion's space territory. Legion's leader, Vildrax II, promised to protect the space dolphins if Lobo joined his Legion government organization, which Lobo agreed to do and helped bring down the drug cartel planet of Cairn, seemingly dying in the ordeal. Lobo survived, however, much to his Legion teammates' dismay as they often fought with the bounty hunter

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and were left with broken bones as a result. A man of honor, however, Lobo remained true to his pact with Rill Trox until Lobo took an opportunity to kill him to get out of the contract, though it was later revealed that Lobo killed merely a clone of Rill. While at an intergalactic space bar, Lobo drunkenly accepted a bet that he couldn't kill Superman, so Lobo traveled to Earth and nearly killed the Man of Steel.

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forcing Superman to fake his own death just so Lobo would believe he'd made good on his bet. At one point, Manga Khan hired Lobo to capture the villain, Dispero, whom Lobo tracked to Earth. Dispero had been running rampant and was in the midst of battling the Justice League International and Justice League Europe teams when Lobo interfered, much to the dismay of the leagues. Eventually, Lobo joined forces with the leagues to bring Dispero down.

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a team up that ended up leveling Manhattan's Times Square in the ensuing battle, though Manga Khan paid for all of the damages to the city once Lobo completed his job. During the death and return of Superman's storylines, Lobo had overheard that Superman had come back from the dead. Still believing he had killed him, Lobo returned to Earth for a rematch against the Man of Steel, and they eventually battled in space, where Superman ended up teaming up with Lobo

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to save him from a group of robotic bounty hunters that they had accidentally crashed into during their battle. Because Superman had helped him, Lobo decided that they didn't need to fight to the death. Not long after, a scandalous tell-all book about Lobo's life became a bestseller among numerous galaxies, spreading his already vile reputation. Not that Lobo cared, but many groups across the galaxy wanted the book's author dead, including the Legion of Decency, the Dune-Din Police SWAT team,

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a union of intergalactic truckers, basically anyone with any kind of vendetta against Lobo, with the assumption that the author was close to him. Brill Drox II hired Lobo to bring in the author alive and unharmed, and it wasn't long before Lobo realized the book's author was his fourth grade teacher, Mrs. Trib, whom he thought he had killed. Wanting nothing more than to kill her outright, but a man of his word, Lobo was forced to

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across galaxies while protecting her from untold numbers of assassins. After killing entire planets full of people, Lobo finally got Mrs. Trib to drill Drox safely, immediately after which he killed her, making himself, once again, the last Zarnian in the universe. What a dick. He's always kind of felt like he was one of a kind, and he makes sure that he is. Some time after killing Santa Claus on a contract set by the Easter Bunny, Lobo found religion.

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and took a vow of nonviolence when he became the Archbishop of the first celestial church of the Triple Fish God. Tasked with bringing the Fish God the powerful weapon known as the Emerald Eye of Ekron, during his mission, Lobo ran into Animal Man, Starfire, and Adam Strange, the latter two of whom you can learn more about in their respective duel episodes. Though helping them fend off villains such as Devil Lance and Lady Sticks proved difficult without resorting to violence,

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Lobo eventually brought the Emerald Eye to the Fish God, which turned out to be the only weapon that could kill it. Seeing Lobo as a valuable asset, the Fish God graciously released Lobo from his vow of nonviolence, only to then be killed by Lobo with the Emerald Eye, after which Lobo took over the church. Lobo finally died during a battle on Apocalypse and was sent to Hell, where he enjoyed the torture and his life's sins fueled a massive region of the underworld.

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Imprisoned by the Archdemon Neron, Lobo was set free by Etrigan the Demon, who you can learn more about in our Etrigan vs. Ghost Rider episode. Lobo re-emerged in the Land of the Living, where he was given a Red Lantern Power Ring, though he wore it as a trophy around his neck, rather than use it and be bound to the Red Lantern Core. When Lobo's church ran into financial trouble, Lobo was forced to work for Real Drox once again, whom he helped defeat the humanoid form of Starro the Conqueror.

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who you can learn more about in our Starro vs. Fing Fang Fum episode. In post-Flashpoint continuity, a new, slender, pretty boy version of Lobo was introduced. It was revealed that the heavyset, obnoxious biker version of Lobo was apparently an imposter, and the quote-unquote real Lobo was really a former bodyguard to the Zarnian royal family, who bathed in blood pools that bestowed regenerative abilities.

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When one of the blood pools became contaminated with a quickly spreading virus, real Lobo was forced to kill everyone on his planet in an act of mercy. This supposedly real version of Lobo didn't last long, however, and the former version was soon revealed to be a member of Amanda Waller's original Suicide Squad team, now under the mind control of Maxwell Lord. Lobo managed to break free of Maxwell Lord's control, however, after Batman managed to implant a bomb in Lobo's head and blow it up.

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It was around this time that Lobo learned he had a half-Zarnean daughter who was raised on Earth named Crush, who had become a member of the Teen Titans. So of course he tried to kill her. Crush was able to stop Lobo from doing so, however, and she and her team imprisoned him on the moon. Not long after, Lobo was imprisoned in real space jail, but Crush broke him out, and the two are currently trying to work things out. That's Lobo's history so far. Now, powers-wise,

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Lobo possesses the natural superhuman durability and strength of a Zarnian, capable of lifting over 100 tons. He has uncanny stamina and rapid regeneration, allowing him to continue fighting even as a charred skeleton or regrowing his entire body from a single drop of blood. On occasion, clones of himself can grow from his blood, usually resulting in an all-out brawl to prove who's the real Lobo. He has enhanced senses of hearing, smell, and vision.

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as well as the innate ability to track targets across the universe, the time stream, and even other dimensions. He's surprisingly a scientific genius, having once pieced together a planet-destroying cannon from trash, and he can speak over 17,000 languages. He carries numerous gadgets and weapons on him, most notably a chain hook he keeps wrapped around his wrist, frag grenades, knives, laser guns, and shotguns. He also has his space hog.

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A customized Spaz Frag 666 that has a miniaturized 17L powerplant with a 3x turbo and full hands-off facility, which he can summon with a whistle from across the universe. He's also immortal, having been banned from both heaven and hell. And that's Lobo. Is he gonna have his space hog during this fight? Even if he doesn't, I'm pretty sure he could summon it. He's equipped to this thing with like, all kinds of like trans-dimensional and time-traveling tech, so. Yes.

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I guess it would be only fair considering that Ghost Rider did get his hell cycle in his battle with Edrigan. Yeah, yeah. He's such a joke of a character though, you know? Uh, yeah, you know, there's occasional fourth wall breaking and stuff with him. He's kind of like Deadpool in that regard, but I think that's why people like him because he's kind of subversive, you know? He's not afraid to tell fanboys to like, bite me. So he carries really powerful grenades. Yeah, when I say they're a frag grenade...

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I don't mean like a fragmentation grenade, I mean like a frag you, you fraggin' bastitch grenade, you know? Alright, well, Carnage is gonna have to find a way to deal with those, but let me go ahead and tell you all about him. The Carnage symbiote is part of an alien race of parasitic beings that attach to other life forms for survival and grant their hosts immense power. As a species, the Clintar were created in the universe's infancy by a primordial deity named Null.

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to use as a biological weapon against Celestials and their creations throughout the cosmos. Null desired to dominate all other lifeforms by exerting his influence over those assimilated by the Klintar symbiotes. Over the millennia, the symbiotes evolved to become more sentient and they rebelled against their creator to live a more peaceful existence. The Klintar tried to bond only with peaceful beings that were pure of heart since attaching themselves to hateful and violent hosts

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would corrupt them and exacerbate their hosts' negative aspects. The corrupted symbiotes would become vulnerable to extreme heat and sonic energies and were exiled and cut off from the Klyntar hive mind. Once such corrupted symbiote found its way to Earth while attached to the hero Spider-Man after one of his adventures in space, which you can learn more about in our Blue Beetle vs Spider-Man Duel episode. Spider-Man managed to rid himself of the symbiote and it attached itself to Eddie Brock, a ruined investigative journalist.

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He had recently been discredited by Spider-Man and had a hatred for the webslinger. The two became Venom, one of Spider-Man's most fearsome and powerful villains, whom you can learn more about in our Clayface vs Venom duel. Spider-Man and Venom fought several times, with Eddie Brock landing in Riker's Island Prison, separated from the symbiote for a time. Eddie's cellmate was a notorious sociopathic serial killer named Cletus Kasady, who was serving 11 consecutive life sentences for murder.

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While in prison, Eddie learned about Cletus' disturbing history. Reportedly, Cletus was born in the Ravencroft Institute to an unknown mother with paranoid schizophrenia. She died shortly after his birth, and Cletus was sent to live with his grandmother. As a child, he killed the elderly woman by pushing her down a flight of stairs, and was subsequently raised by foster parents Roscoe and Louise. Troubled and psychotic, Cletus tormented his foster family with bizarre behavior.

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eventually killing the family dog. Yikes. Driven mad, his foster mom Louise tried to kill Cletus, and Roscoe tried to stop her, accidentally killing his wife in the process. During the murder trial, Cletus claimed Roscoe killed Louise for no reason, resulting in his foster father's death via electric chair. DANG. As a teen, Cletus was sent to the St. Estes Home for Boys orphanage where he was bullied for his eccentric behavior. He fell in love with a girl he had met.

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and when she rejected him, he pushed her in front of an oncoming school bus. Cletus ended up fleeing the orphanage and setting it on fire, killing the disciplinarian staff and the other orphan boys in the process. Dude, this kid sucks! He adopted the philosophy that laws were only words, and that by murdering others, he was freeing them from the chaos and meaninglessness of life. Cletus then went on a killing spree, murdering nearly a dozen more people and experimenting with cannibalism.

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before authorities finally caught up and sent him to Rikers. Dude, ugh, this is hard. It's like, let's think up the most fucked up character we could possibly think up. Yeah, he's more fucked up than Lobo. I'll say that. I mean, Lobo killed Santa Claus. There's also that. That's true. Now while in Rikers, Cletus tried to convert Eddie Brock to his nihilistic life philosophy, though Cletus disgusted Brock and was dismissed by him. When Cletus was about to stab Eddie with the shiv he created, the venom symbiote-

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broke into their cell and rebonded with Eddie. As Venom escaped the prison, the symbiote left behind an asexually reproduced spawn that bonded onto Cletus. Newly formed and corrupted beyond reason, the new symbiote called itself Carnage and empowered Cletus far beyond the powers of Venom or Spider-Man. He killed his prison guard by pulling him through his cell bars and escaped to randomly kill more victims. Spider-Man and Venom had

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using Madison Square Garden's PA system to produce sonic waves that seemingly destroyed the symbiote. Cletus was captured and taken to the asylum of his birth, the Ravencroft Institute for the Criminally Insane. Unbeknownst to anyone, however, the carnage symbiote had bonded itself to Cletus' blood through a cut in his hand at their first encounter, giving the creature his red appearance. Cletus escaped Ravencroft alongside several other villains, including a mutant named Shriek,

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who could produce sonic waves that drive people insane. The pair went on a killing spree, causing a group of New Yorkers to turn on each other violently. It took Spider-Man, Venom, Black Cat, and the Avengers combined might to stop the villains, and Cletus was imprisoned again in a specialized cell back at Ravencroft. Eventually, Venom confronted Cletus at the asylum, pulled the symbiote from Cletus's body, and devoured it, destroying Carnage.

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Distraught, Cletus escaped Ravencroft and painted his body red, claiming to still have the symbiote and going on another murderous rampage. There was some truth to that as remnants of Carnage did remain in his bloodstream, and it directed him to another symbiote and Cletus bonded with this new Klyntar alien, absorbing and assimilating it into his being. After a battle with Venom, Cletus landed in The Raft, a prison for superpowered people.

32:56
When the Spider-Man villain Electro initiated a full-on prison break from the Raft, which you can learn more about in our Flash vs Electro duel, the Sentry pulled Carnage out into space and ripped him in half. The symbiote kept Cletus' body alive as the two halves orbited Earth for a time. He eventually crashed into a satellite owned by one of Tony Stark's rivals, Michael Hall, who acquired the pair and kept Cletus in stasis while incorporating the symbiote into his

33:26
Cletus escaped his confinement and rejoined with Carnage, battling both Spider-Man and Iron-Man via the symbiote-powered armor, before being defeated. At one point, Cletus was kidnapped by a cult that worshipped Null, the primordial deity and creator of the symbiotes. They grafted a sample of the original symbiote, called Grendel, onto him, hoping to turn him into a submissive vessel for Null. Carnage instead assimilated the Grendel symbiote, increasing his power

33:54
and he began infecting the homeless population with symbiotic brain worms to serve as his personal army. Eugh! They helped bring him anyone who had ever bonded with symbio over the years so Carnage could consume their remnant power. Increasing his might, Carnage sprouted horns and wings, transforming into Dark Carnage. Venom defeated Dark Carnage by manifesting a necro sword similar to the Thor villain, Gore, and slicing Dark Carnage in two, destroying Cletus's body.

34:23
The Grendel Carnage symbiote then bonded to Venom to make him the new vessel for Null. However, the Venom symbiote overcame their merger and was powerful enough to destroy Null once and for all. Venom then became the new ruler of the Klintar Hivemind and banished the Carnage symbiote to the ocean's depths. However, remnants of Cletus's mind survived within the symbiote just as the symbiote had survived in Cletus so many times before.

34:49
Cletus's mind awoke, now intent on creating a rival symbiote hive. And that's his history. Powers-wise, Carnage is one of the most dangerous and powerful Klyntar symbiotes to have ever existed. He's stronger than Venom and Spider-Man combined, able to lift around 80 tons. His fluidic biomass can extend tentacles and tendrils or form into hardened shapes such as spikes, blades, shields, and clubs. He can even shoot thin but durable strands of his own mass to ensnare an opponent.

35:19
Oh, like webbing? Yeah, kind of. Carnage can shapeshift to render different outer appearances and blend into his surroundings like a chameleon. He's extremely durable, able to negate the impacts of most physical attacks up to gunfire, and mostly resist stronger attacks. Carnage physically and telepathically bonded with Cletus to provide a 360-degree view of his surroundings, making it difficult to surprise attack him. The symbiote is in fact bonded to Cletus at the cellular level,

35:47
granting him a powerful regenerative healing factor that makes him nearly impossible to kill and able to eventually come back if even the smallest bit of the symbiote remains. Because of this unique bonding, Carnage can also manipulate his body into non-humanoid shapes, and he can stretch, slingshot, and swing to travel large distances quickly. Carnage has the ability to infect and possess other beings with this symbiote and has limited telepathic control over them. Despite his powers,

36:15
Carnage is vulnerable to fire and sonic energies. I didn't realize Carnage was that strong. That's pretty crazy. Yeah, 80 tons is no joke. You know, that's like along the lines of like Captain Marvel and Namor the Submariner. So he's strong, he could shape shift, he could basically have like any weapon he wants to. I think this is gonna be a pretty good match. Yeah, I'm excited to get into the speculation, so let's go ahead and do that. And now that we've got their histories and abilities out of the way, let's talk about how one of the 1,000 simulated matches will go. The winner is determined by simulations.

36:44
not our speculation, but it is fun to imagine how this fight could play out. And we don't set any rules for this match, other than the characters don't know anything about each other going in, except that the other character is a threat that needs to be put down. And we say that they start off about 50 meters apart, in an environment that has no bearing on the match itself, because we don't take stats for the environment. Plus certain characters have advantages in some environments over others, and we want these characters to win on their own merits. So let's get into it.

37:13
Lobo and Carnage meet on the battlefield. Who goes first? Lobo's gonna start this one, and he's just gonna start by pulling out this sod off laser shotgun, and just blasts Carnage with it. A shotgun at that range? It's a laser shotgun. Lasers. All right, well, Carnage is gonna throw up like this biomass shield in front of him, and you know, it's not gonna protect against lasers too well, but it'll provide him some cover, as with his non-shield hand, he's gonna reach out.

37:41
and he's gonna like fling a large tendril at Lobo's gun and just like snap it away from Lobo's grasp and tossing it like Hundreds of meters away. What? Okay, Lobo loved that gun So he's pissed and he's just gonna charge at carnage just swinging his like chained hook and as he gets close He's gonna hurl that thing right into carnage's torso hooking into Cletus Kasady's spinal column He's just gonna yank that sucker right out except like

38:09
Carnage, his body is like, you know, it's not normal. It's like a sinewy, fluidic mass. So as Lobo tries to yank out Carnage's spine, Carnage's whole body is gonna go with the spine, just hurtling towards Lobo. And as he's getting yanked toward him, he's gonna form his arms into these giant, like, sides that just reach out and, like, chop off both of Lobo's arms right at the shoulders. And he just starts dismembering Lobo. Dang! All right, so...

38:37
As Lobo is being cut into, he's gonna whistle, alright? And his space hog just comes in from like nowhere, just flying right into Carnage and just carrying him off into the distance, which gives Lobo enough time to get to his arms, which he reattaches. And then Lobo's gonna whistle again, and his bike is gonna bring back Carnage. So this is like a hover bike, right? Yeah, yeah. Alright, so when Lobo calls his bike back to him to bring Carnage back, the bike is...

39:06
not gonna look like how he remembers it. It's gonna be red with black streaks. What? And it's gonna have this big smiling, sharp, toothy grin in the front where the grill is because Carnage will have wrapped himself around this bike and now he's in control of it. And as it comes back, he's gonna steer it right into Lobo and it's gonna crash into him right as Carnage detaches from the bike and leaps away. That's like some Freddy Krueger shit right there. Lobo did not appreciate that. It's like.

39:33
Lowe gets plowed by his own bike, but he's also super durable and he controls the bike mentally, right? So as he's like hurtling through the air with it He's just gonna climb on to it as it's traveling midair and he's just gonna take control, right? So he's gonna steer the bike towards carnage before slamming on the brakes and just launching himself Right into carnage tackling him onto the ground and just using his fists to pound him right into like marinara sauce

40:02
Alright, well, okay, so Lobo, he's like punching Carnage in the face, repeatedly turning it to mush, but Carnage is just gonna morph his body so that his head is like on the side of his body, instead of where his head normally was. So Lobo is just punching the ground. And then Carnage, while he's underneath Lobo, he's gonna like protrude all these spikes out of his body, like he's a porcupine or a hedgehog or something. And Lobo is just gonna get impaled, like a thousand spikes all over his body.

40:30
And he's going to be like unable to move just suspended by all these needles. Huh. So every part of Lobo's body is like impaled. Except for his hand. All right. Which is holding surprise a frag grenade. All right. So that was just going to like thumb out the pin and let the grenade drop like right onto carnage. Boom. So like Lobo, he gets blown far away. But carnage, he's reduced to like a few writhing tendrils. That's pretty good. But.

40:59
You know what? Carnage only needs a few writhing tendrils to still survive. These tendrils crawl toward each other and they join together, growing and reforming a sinewy shape that eventually becomes humanoid again. So Carnage is back, and he's pissed. Okay, so in all that time it takes Carnage to heal, you know, Lobo has also recovered. And he's coming back into the fray on his bike, alright? And by the way, like, this whole ordeal, this whole matchup against Carnage...

41:28
Lobo is loving it. Like he's having the time of his life, right? Even with like being impaled and stuff like that. So like the only thing that's gonna make this better is like blasting some heavy metal music on his bike. So that's what he does. So he just turns that thing all the way up, like cranks it to 11, which unknowingly affects Carnage because of the sonic waves. And it's just causing the symbiote to like writhe in pain, like scream. I mean, I'm calling bullshit on the whole music thing because Lobo wouldn't know. What?

41:57
that sonic waves affect Carnage. Dude, Lobo rides the space waves, listening to music all the time. Okay, so Carnage is like reacting to the sonic energy and he's gonna reflexively lash out and then stretch one of his arms out with like this axe head tendril that's just gonna slice Lobo's bike right in half. What? And Lobo's gonna like crash into the ground, skid across on his ass with his handlebars still in his hand.

42:27
Lobo loves that bike. He's gonna be like super pissed that it just got destroyed. Alright, so he has the handlebars still in his hand. He's just fierce. He's just gonna charge Carnage and just shove those handlebars like right up his ass. That means nothing to Carnage, alright? If anything, he's just gonna tighten up... What? ..and hold Lobo there, and he's gonna form his arms into like these giant thorny chainsaws-type things that just rip Lobo right in half, like across his midsection.

42:56
Dude, all that's gonna do is just turn one Lobo into two Lobos. You know, one of them being naked from the waist down. Ugh. So enjoy that view, Carnage. Well, Carnage is gonna reach out to one of these Lobos. We'll say the topless one, not the bottomless one. And he's gonna infect that Lobo. So now it's Carnage and a symbiote-possessed Lobo against Lobo.

43:23
and the two carnage characters are just gonna beat the shit out of Lobo, like taking turns stabbing him and smashing him. They're just ripping him apart. Okay, so Lobo is dying, I guess. Yep. Just sensing that this is the end of the road. He's going to pull out like a cigar and a lighter from like his vest pocket. Right? Oh my God. And once he lights up the lighter, he notices how both carnages react to the flame. They like, like draw back. They're like, oh no. When he lights up. So.

43:52
He's gonna activate the lighter's like flamethrower mode. And he's just gonna douse both of them in flames, just turning all of their cells into ash. I'm calling bullshit on the flamethrower mode. What? You don't know. They saw those in space. I guess that sounds like something that he would have. So both carnages are on fire, probably screaming, you know, they're dying. The carnage possessed Lobo is definitely dead, but the regular carnage, he rushes up to Lobo.

44:19
and he shows his fiery hand up Lobo's nostrils, entering Lobo's brain through his nasal cavity and assimilating him. So there's only one character left on the battlefield, but he's carnage possessed, so carnage wins. No dude, that's not how that works. Lobo is the last character, so Lobo wins. Cletus Kasady is fucking gone. But the symbiote still exists within Lobo, so carnage wins. I mean, Lobo's gonna love that. He's gonna be like, yeah, now I have like all these weapons.

44:49
whenever I want. There's no way he loses because he got like symbiote possessed. Well, that's what happens, so. Yay, Carnage wins. Lobo wins. Let's take it to the stats. Either the Carnage symbiote is in control of Lobo, or Lobo is in control of the Carnage symbiote. Yeah, let's find out which scenario happens when we come back after inputting the character stats and running the 1000 simulations. We'll be right back.

45:15
That took an unexpected twist at the end. I'm still not quite sure who won in our speculation. Well, that's what we're here to find out. So we input the stats, we ran the simulations. The characters deferred on a lot of stats. Like we said Carnage was much more evasive than Lobo, given that he's so elastic. We said that they tied when it came to speed because we definitely didn't put in the space bike into the stats. But I mean, Lobo is still pretty fast even without the bike.

45:41
And we also said they were about even when it came to like fighting skill and perception. Lobo came out ahead of Cartage on a few stats such as durability, damage level, strength, range, and versatility. Where Lobo smoked Carnage on was intelligence, which was interesting. Yeah, Cletus Kasady is not too smart. And Lobo is surprisingly smart. Yeah. So taking all of this into consideration, who do you think came out on top?

46:09
I will concede that I'm pretty sure it's going to be Lobo looking at the stats, but I think it's not going to be by too much. In the poll that we sent out to Instagram, 64% of the respondents said that they thought Lobo would win, and I think that sounds about right. I think Lobo is going to take about that much of the win percentage. Well, I have the results right here. The winner of the matchup between Lobo and Carnage is Lobo. You're correct. Yeah.

46:39
69.2% of the 1000 matches. That was really close. Yeah, I just have to say, Lobo would probably be thrilled that he won by 69%. Well, Lobo may have won this duel, but he's still a dumb character. Like, Carnage is way cooler than Lobo. Dude, you don't get cooler than Lobo. What are you talking about? He's too like all over the place, you know? Like what the hell is going on? He's so weird. Carnage is straight up evil personified.

47:09
Carnage is just second rate Venom. Carnage is superior to Venom in every way. I don't know what you're talking about, man. Oh yeah, then why does Venom like beat Carnage all the time? Touche. I have no idea. You know, teamwork. I didn't give Carnage's results. Carnage won 308 out of the 1000 matches. So he wins less than a third of the time. Sucks to be you. No man, it'll suck to be me when Carnage doesn't have a movie coming out and Lobo does. But guess what?

47:39
It's the reverse of that. I mean, Lobo was in the Krypton TV show and like the animated series. Shut up. You know, I just remembered wasn't Michael Bay supposed to direct a Lobo movie? Like that was news back in like 2018. That just kind of like died off. I mean, doesn't that happen with most DC projects? All right, we're done here. Lobo one. Fuck you.

48:03
That does it for this duel. Let us know what you thought about the results by writing to us at dynamic duel podcast at gmail.com or by visiting us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter. You can find links to all of our accounts by checking out the show notes or visiting our website dynamic duel dot com. And on our website, you could also find a way to subscribe to our show either through Patreon or through Spotify by visiting dynamic duel dot com slash subscribe. Both subscriptions are about two dollars a month.

48:30
Though with Patreon, you get bonus content, including bonus episodes and duels, monthly live movie watch alongs, collectible pinsets, and access to our Discord server. Yeah, check it out right after this episode. Next week's episode, as we mentioned before, will be a review of the Venom sequel titled Venom Let There Be Carnage. I'm super excited to see how the movie is going to treat carnage. I'm not sure if the film is going to be any better than the 2018 movie, but if it's at least as good as it...

48:59
I'll be happy. Yeah, I'm going into it like with very like mediocre expectations. I'm hoping I'll be surprised. That does it for this episode. We want to give a big thanks to our executive producers, John Spies, Ken Johnson, Jace Crump, John Storosky, Zachary Hepburn, John Bechinina, Mitchell Phipps, Steven Lovato, Dustin Belcombe, and Salvador Hernandez Contreras Jr. for helping make this podcast possible. We'll talk to you guys next week. Up up and away. True believers.