Punisher: War Zone Review

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And welcome to the Dynamic Duel Podcast, a weekly show where we review superhero films and debate the superiority between Marvel and DC by comparing their characters in stat-based battle simulations. I'm Marvelous Joe. And I'm his twin brother, Johnny DC. And in this episode, we are going to review the 2008 Lionsgate film Punisher: War Zone, which starred the now late Ray Stevenson. We are doing this episode as a tribute to him. He recently passed away at the age of 58.

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while on the set of a film he was shooting called Casino in Istia. Super tragic. He was a great actor. We don't have many details yet on his passing, but that reviewing this film was a good way to call out our respects on the actor. Right. Yeah. If you remember from our last episode, we said that we would be reviewing Ghost Rider for this episode, but we decided to call an audible considering Gray Stevenson's passing. And I'm just also really tired of doing Flash tie-ins because that film's box office performance is depressing.

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Which makes me laugh. But before we get into the Punisher: War Zone review, we're going to discuss the latest comic book movie news that came out this past week, including the news that Jennifer Garner is going to return as Elektra for the Deadpool 3 film and the announcement trailer for Suicide Squad Isakai. As always, we list our segment times in our episode description, so feel free to check out the show notes if you wanna skip ahead to a particular topic. Those of you who have listened to our recent podcast episodes will know that our duel simulator has become so advanced

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that it's gained sentience and has named itself the Artificial Lifeform for running extensive duels, just a rather very intelligent simulator 9000. Or Alfred Jarvis 9000. He has a quick message for our listeners, so let's hear it.

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Why hello there. Do you love listening and chatting about Marvel and DC? Then become a part of the dynamic duel community on Patreon where you can choose from three tiers. The dynamic 2-0 tier lets you listen to this podcast without ads and gives you access to its Discord chat group where you can chat with Johnny DC and Marvelous Joe.

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Thanks AJ9K and thanks to everyone who supports the podcast, including our executive producer Ken Johnson, who has his own podcast in our Dynamike Podcast Network called Max Destruction.

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which pits action movie characters against each other and finds out who would win using our Monte Carlo simulator. The show's gonna launch its 10th episode tomorrow and I was lucky enough to be a guest on that episode, which was a lot of fun. So here's a quick teaser clip from that episode. I'm a big fan of what you guys are doing here. I always thought Jonathan and I were a little bit special and that no one else could do what we do, but you guys are totally nailing it. And while it hurts my ego, it is worth it to listen every week.

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I don't know how many backhand compliments there were there, Dustin. However, I'm going to take every one of them as they were intended as a supreme compliment to our skills here as podcasters. So because you say you're a fan, just if I got to ask, which of our episodes have you enjoyed the most and why is it when born BeatBond? That is my least favorite episode, actually. That was a bullshit episode.

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And I did ask you guys to redo it and I do still expect that to happen. But I have two favorite episodes. The first one is the Supernatural versus the Crow episode, largely because I didn't know much about Dean Winchester. And I think one of the best things about this show, in addition to, you know, finding out who would fight is that you guys really give a great breakdown of these movie characters that people may or may not necessarily know. I've only seen maybe like one episode of Supernatural.

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So when you first announced that fight, I was a little bit confused as to why that would even be a good matchup. But then I listened to it and I was like, that was pretty fire. That was really good. I liked it. But my other favorite episode was the one that you guys just did, which was the last action hero versus Jumanji. I forget the character's names. Bravestone. Yeah, Bravestone. Jack Slater. And there you go. That was just a nostalgic joy for me because I've only seen last action hero once and it was at the discount theater with my brother.

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And I had almost completely forgot about everything about that film. But listening to you go over it again and then listening to you guys battle it out, the description of how everything went felt so true to just the slapstick nature of those films. I thought it was really well done. And on that note, folks, I think we are done for this episode. I'm just going to end it right there. We are doing awesome. And you guys. Great show. Great hosts. Great fun. If you guys aren't listening to Max Destruction podcast, you're missing out. Don't sleep on it.

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Yeah, now is the perfect time to start listening if you haven't already. But with that out of the way, quick to the no prize. A no prize is an award Marvel used to give out to fans. Our version, the dynamic duel no prize, is a digital award that we post on Instagram and in our email newsletter for the person that we feel gave the best answer to our question of the week. Last week's question, and by last week, I mean the last two weeks, was after Venom, Morbius, Vulture and Kraven.

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What two other Spidey villains do you want to get their own films and join Sony's Sinister Six? And that question was coming off of the first trailer for the Kraven the Hunter movie. We got so many answers largely because you guys had a lot of time to respond, but we picked three honorable mentions as well as a no prize winner, so let's go ahead and run down those. Our first honorable mention goes to Luke B. Who said? Hey guys, Luke B here. So for my first pick I picked the Chameleon.

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grounded story for a Spider-Man universe. I have other characters like the Kingpin, Hammerhead, Tombstone in there. For my second pick, I would choose Scorpion. I think it would be great for him to get a true live-action appearance in his costume. And it could be removed for the next Spider-Man 4 movie. But if not, it'd be a great pick for here. He can join the Sinister Six. So yeah. Yeah, I think both Chameleon and Scorpion would make great individuel standalone films.

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Chameleon I could definitely see as kind of like this spy Intrigue type film being a character who was able to take on the identity of other people and the scorpion of course is a Classic spider-man villain who has yet really to make a huge appearance in the spider-man movies outside of like a cameo in spider-man Homecoming, but I'd like to get a more focused look on this awesome villain character Yeah, considering the characters already being cast for the MCU I think would be great to get a standalone film with him. The character is pretty interesting. Yeah

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The scorpion is my favorite spiderman villain that has yet to be the primary villain in a movie. So great answer Luke B, our next honorable mention goes to Christopher Manotti who said Hi guys Christopher Manotti. I would want Doctor Octopus and Mysterio to get their own movies. Doctor Octopus obviously is a great character and I feel like he could get a great movie especially if we're changing all of them to heroes like they have with Morbius and Venom. And the MCU has shown

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that Mysterio can be a cool character and I would just love to build upon him in a solo film. Yeah, so I picked this answer for several reasons. The first being Doc Ock and Mysterio are both huge Spider-Man characters who have made appearances in Spider-Man movies in the past but are big enough to support their own movie. The second reason I chose them was because it really doesn't feel like a Sinister Six team without at least Doctor Octopus on it, given that he was the leader of the first Sinister Six.

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And you can learn more about the Sinister Six by listening to our Arkham Asylum versus Sinister Six team duel episode. Yeah, surprisingly, Christopher Minotti was the only person to submit an answer with Doctor Octopus. I thought that would be people's number one answer. I would love to see a Doctor Octopus film. I don't think I would cast Alfred Molina. I think I would recast it as someone younger for the MCU. As like a multiversal variant? Yeah, yeah, the MCU's version. Would you recast Mysterio or would you go with Jake Gyllenhaal's version?

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I would totally go with Jake Gyllenhaal's version. That was an amazing version, fantastic casting choice. Jake Gyllenhaal is the man and his Mysterio was badass. I mean Alfred Molina's character was badass too, but he is kind of getting up there in age to carry his own film. Right. Great answer Christopher Menotti. Our final honorable mention goes to Jacob Bell, who said, Hey, what's up guys? This is Jacob Bell. Um, I know that this answer probably won't.

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be featured as an honorable mention, but am I allowed to answer with none? I don't think that these movies are good, and I think that they should stop making them. I don't really want to see a Sinister Six in this universe. And so, yeah, that is my answer, is zero. Nobody else. Let's not do it anymore.

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I totally see where Jacob Bell is coming from. You know, Venom is an okay series, but nothing else looks really promising. It would be better to get the Sinister Six as a group of villains in an MCU Spidey film, you know, with Tom Holland. None of this weird stuff where they team up to fight crime as anti-heroes or something like that. Sony's making a mistake. We all know it, and it probably would be better if they just kind of like abandoned everything and, you know, gave up the rights of all their characters back to Disney.

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That's never gonna happen. Spider-Verse made so much money. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. But a guy can hope, a guy can dream. And if I can make any one of these scenarios happen based on the answers that we received, it would be Jacob Bell's answer. Would your mind change if Craven was an insanely good movie? No. Really? Really. What if it was like the new Dark Knight of superhero movies? You mean like the new Morbius? Um, still no. All right, that's fair. If you're comparing it to Morbius, I agree. Great answer, Jacob Bell.

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We want to give a quick shout out to everyone who took the time to visit our website and record an answer, including Abner O'Terry, Alex Wong, Colby Hentges, Ed Jones, Matt Lamb, Mitchell Smoothie, Nick Abonto, Travis Herndon, and Zachary Hepburn. Yeah, thank you guys so much, but the winner of this week's No Prize is Brandon Eschergard, who said, Hey guys, I'm going with Prowler and Black Cat. I think that Hypno Hustler movie is secretly a Prowler movie in disguise.

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I think everyone would rather see Donald Glover play Prowler over Hypno Hustler. But 2012 dread slash high style Black Hat movie would be cool as hell. I cast Mickey Madison as Black Hat. They should be perfect role in a good matchup with Tom Holland or Miles Brownless if they brought either one into the Sony universe. So the reason Brandon's answer got the win for this week is because it's I think the one that I can most likely see happening. You know, Donald Glover.

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was allegedly in talks to play a hypno hustler, but he would be much better suited as the Prowler. Could definitely see that. Donald Glover could definitely lead his own Prowler film. And I think the actor and the character both have a lot of clout due to the Spider-Verse films. And it would just be cool to see that movie. Have you seen Across the Spider-Verse yet? No, I have not seen Across the Spider-Verse yet. I don't wanna know anything. Don't say fucking anything. I'll fucking kill you. Sounds like you know something already. I don't know shit. Okay, good. I maybe saw a spoiler online that I regret, but anyway. Oh damn.

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Uh, Black Cat also, I think Black Cat has been long overdue for her own solo film. I think out of a lot of Spider-Man's villains, Black Cat seems like low-hanging fruit in terms of getting a solo picture, largely because she's an anti-hero as well. You know, she has more heroic tendencies than villainous, and I think her movie would sell a lot of tickets. Well, they did have a silver and black film in the works. Maybe they could just retool that script to focus more on Black Cat instead of Black Cat and Silver Sable. Right, right. Exactly.

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Neither of those characters are traditionally part of the Sinister Six, but you know, neither is Morbius. So they're definitely branching away from the source material when it comes to this super villain team. And refocusing it as kind of like an anti-hero thing means that characters like Prowler and Black Cat might be better suited to it. I'm still not sure they're turning it into an anti-hero thing, considering the name of the team is the Sinister Six. Yeah, but they're like sinister in a good way. What? Like a badass anti-hero, like we're sinister, but we're also going to save your life.

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Maybe. I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying. I have no idea what Sony's planning. Who knows, who knows? Sony's stupid. They're making me sound dumb right now. So congrats again to Brandon Estregard for winning this week's No Prize. If you the listener want a shot at winning your own No Prize, stay tuned to later on this episode when we'll be asking another question of the week. And now that that's done, on to the news.

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Alright, this past week we got news from the Hollywood Reporter, some of the most surprising news I think we've ever gotten on the show, that Jennifer Garner is going to return as Elektra for the Deadpool 3 film which is currently filming. Never saw that coming! What the fuck is going on? Jennifer Garner of course played the character of Elektra first in the 2003 Daredevil movie starring Ben Affleck, and then she got her own spin-off film in 2005 called Elektra. The spin-off Elektra movie was no good.

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And so it's kind of surprising that she would be returning, considering that, you know, she was a fan favorite character. But, I do think that this casting announcement provides an interesting clue as to the plot of the Deadpool 3 movie, in that a lot of people are speculating that the film is basically a version of the Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe story from the comics, but instead of the Marvel Universe, it's going to be the specific Fox, X-Men, Daredevil, Fantastic Four universe.

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that those movies perhaps took place in. Right, it kind of seems like Ryan Reynolds' Deadpool character is going to start killing off the Fox characters so that he could join the MCU. Something like that, which sounds super meta, but in a very Deadpool way. I could totally see that working, and I think it would actually be a movie that would be a lot of fun to see. We don't know if that's in fact the plot, nor do we know how Wolverine would factor into that if that was the case. But the mere fact that Jennifer Garner is going to be in this film...

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is bonkers and I kind of absolutely love it. Yeah, this is coming after we heard rumors that Ben Affleck was going to be in Deadpool 3, which I didn't believe at first considering the fact that, you know, Ben Affleck is no longer going to be Batman. It kind of seems like he's returned to his tour directing career and has kind of stepped away from comic book films. Yeah. But after hearing the news of Jennifer Gardner, you have to imagine that there's a strong possibility Ben Affleck could return as Daredevil, which is kind of hilarious if he's going to be killed.

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Yeah, a very strong possibility. I'm wondering if these type of cameos are going to be similar to the Bread Pit cameo that we had in Deadpool 2, you know, which, you know, only lasted a few seconds and was more of an Easter egg, if anything else. Actually Matt Damon was also in Deadpool 2. But that kind of thing is interesting to speculate on, you know, their appearance could be a matter of seconds. It could be a sizable.

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guest role. We'll see as we get further details on the movie. But I cannot wait till we at least get a plot synopsis for this film, because now I'm like chomping at the bit to know what the hell is going on. I almost imagine that Hugh Jackman's Wolverine character is probably going to try and stop Deadpool from ending the Fox universe, maybe because Logan was such a great movie or something like that. And he wants that ending. Potentially, who knows? Who knows? We also know the TVA is going to make an appearance.

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in the Deadpool 3 movie, so whether or not Deadpool killing the Foxxmen universe will have any play on the Logan movie because it's possible that we might be dealing with a bunch of variants here, who knows. But again, we'll see. All the speculation though brings us to our question of the week.

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Besides Elektra and the other announced characters, what other Fox Marvel character do you most want to see make an appearance in Deadpool 3? Record your answer at dynamicduel.com by clicking on the red microphone button in the bottom right hand corner of the screen, which will prompt you to leave us a voicemail. Your message could be up to 30 seconds long, and don't forget to leave your name in case we include you on the podcast. We'll pick our favorite answer and award that person a Dynamic Duel No Prize that we'll post to Instagram.

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and our email newsletter. Be sure to answer before July 15th. In DC News, this past week we got an announcement teaser from DC for an all new original anime series called Suicide Squad Isakai. It's not a long teaser, it's only 48 seconds, but it showcases a lot of Harley Quinn and surprisingly the Joker. It looks like they'll be traveling to like a magical Japanese world with dragons and Oni.

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We didn't really see any other Suicide Squad characters in the teaser except for Amanda Waller, but I'm really looking forward to seeing what their designs are like, because Japanese animation design is pretty dope. Yeah, we've gotten several Japanese anime style DC projects in the past, including Batman Ninja and the recent Catwoman Hunted, but this is like the first series I think we're getting, and it looks very interesting. For those who don't know, I didn't know, my wife had to tell me, isekai is a genre of anime.

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wherein a character is transported to another world and the plot is about them interacting with this strange new environment. Examples of this genre include Spirited Away, which was a Miyazaki Studio Ghibli film, and like Sword Art Online, that kind of thing. I never expected to see something like that for the Suicide Squad, so this is a huge surprise, but it's a pleasant one because the animation style looks really cool. I'm looking forward to it. We don't know what platform it's going to air on, but I have to imagine it's going to air on Max.

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Yeah, if it does, we'll be sure to review it. We'll let you guys know. Definitely an interesting week for surprising, like out of left field news. Yeah, for sure.

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But I think that does it for all the news for this week, so let's go ahead and get into our main event, where we review the 2008 Lionsgate Marvel film Punisher: War Zone.

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Okay, Punisher: War Zone came out in 2008, was directed by Lexi Alexander, and stars Ray Stevenson and Dominic West. The movie came out under the darker Marvel Knights banner four years after the 2004 film starring Thomas Jane, which we reviewed a couple years ago with Ken Johnson of the Max Destruction Podcast. That was a great episode, still my favorite episode of Dynamic Duel, and in that review we discussed how while Thomas Jane was a solid Frank Castle,

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The 2004 Punisher film was kind of dull and didn't have a lot of action. The same cannot be said of Punisher: War Zone. Punisher: War Zone is anything but dull and has a lot of action. And if that's your thing, be sure to watch Punisher: War Zone before continuing on with this review, as it is a spoiler review. Yeah, this is only my second time watching the film. The whole Marvel Knights thing at the beginning threw me for a loop. Was that the only film to be under the Marvel Knights banner?

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No, Ghost Rider Spirit of Vengeance was another Marvel Knights film. Okay. Objectively speaking, Punisher: War Zone is not a good film. You know, it's a fun film, sure. And actually, the absolute best thing I can say about the movie is that for me, it's the definition of a guilty pleasure. You know, I like the movie. I really have a good time every time I watch it. You know, it puts a big smile on my face. But looking at it critically, yeah, the movie is just too ridiculous to recommend, generally. But since it is a guilty pleasure...

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I would prefer to discuss what I liked about the movie before we start shitting all over it. Does that sound good? Yeah, sure, that's fine. I feel like, I don't know if I would consider this a guilty pleasure for me, but I definitely think if you're a fan of the Punisher comics, you'll get more enjoyment out of it, for sure. Yeah, oh, definitely. I would agree with that.

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I think other people might wonder what the fuck they're watching. You know, it just seems very unlike what you would expect from a traditional Punisher movie. And I think that's why the movie didn't do very well at the box office. In fact, it's one of Marvel's lowest grossing films ever. But in terms of what I liked about it, you know, first off, I love the fun violence of the movie. You know, the number one thing that any Punisher film or series should be is violent. You know, he is a violent character after all, you know, the whole premise of the Punisher.

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is that he's a ruthless vigilante who uses his honed military skills to take out criminals, you know, sometimes in brutal fashion. And hot damn is this movie brutal. Unflinchingly so at times. Like when Punisher is blasting dudes' heads off point blank with a shotgun, or when Jigsaw jams a wineglass stem through a dude's Adam's apple. It's crazy. This isn't like the type of Punisher who's just gonna throw you off a building to get impaled through the chest on a wrought iron fence.

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He's also gonna make sure he finishes the job by jumping on your head to detach your skull from your spine because that's how punisher do. Yeah, I don't know if violence was a pro for me. Sometimes it was hard to watch. Oh, don't be a puss. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna say that. I think it was intended to be humorous at the very least. Oh, absolutely. Just how over the top it was. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of dark humor in the film. I actually think it's

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crucial to approach this movie as a black comedy, otherwise it's almost too cheesy to even appreciate. But that dark humor is pretty faithful to the Garth Ennis style of writing and I am a fan of his comics. While the 2004 Thomas Jane Punisher movie was heavily inspired by writer Garth Ennis' Marvel Knights comic book run, starting with Welcome Back Frank, Punisher: War Zone is more inspired by Ennis' Max comic book imprint.

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For those who don't know, Marvel occasionally publishes titles with mature, explicit content for adults called Max. They're basically Marvel's rated-R comics. And the Max line really let Garth Anis go beyond the boundaries of a normal Punisher series, and let him loose in terms of language and graphic violence. The Punisher Max stories are, like, pretty fucked up with some really ugly characters, because when you have a hero as reprehensible as the Punisher, you need your villains to be even more so, you know?

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And to director Lexi Alexander's credit, she pretty much put the Max comics up on the screen. You know, it's a mostly faithful adaptation, you know, from the violence to the humor and even the color styling. Yeah, I love those Garth Ennis books. I never read the Max storylines. They're crazy. They're fucking nuts. I bet. Yeah. I mean, considering how crazy the Marvel Knights comics were, I can't imagine what Garth Ennis could do with with the Max line. But yeah, this felt.

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like a love letter sort of to Garth Ennis's Max Punisher and just Garth Ennis's Punisher in general. Right. But the problem in adapting the Max comics with Punisher: War Zone was that there was no real care given to the nuances of the Punisher that make him so fascinating. You know, everything from the comics was taken at face value and then slapped up on the screen. You know, the violence was brutal, but it was also shallow. The humor was presented without satire, which it kind of needs. The

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and cliched, like super cliched, is nuts. And the cinematography bordered on being over-stylized and somewhat distracting. When adapting a comic book to film, it's good to be faithful to the source material, and no one would ever fault Punisher: War Zone for being unfaithful to the comics, but it's also good to understand at a deeper level what makes these stories so compelling and how that best translates in a different medium.

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because even the most adult comics presented on screen at face value can come across as cartoony. You know, look at Zack Snyder's Watchmen, for example. That was an adaptation that came off more cartoony and less real than the celebrated graphic novel. Right, and of course, when Zack Snyder adapted Watchmen, he adapted certain scenes almost panel for panel onto the screen. When I was watching Punisher: War Zone, I was definitely fully aware of...

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how sometimes what's on the page doesn't necessarily translate very well to the screen. Right. You know, when you're dealing with comics, you're dealing with artists and artists can have different styles. When you're dealing with a camera though, you can't really capture the tone and vibe that an artist can bring to the art. Right, well like flat 2D art can evoke so much more feeling than what is actually shown on the page. Whereas what you see on the screen is very literal. Yeah.

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I mean, in a comic, when I see like Punisher shooting someone and there's like blood splattered everywhere, I could find humor in that if the art is styled a specific way. When you're filming it, there's really no way around it. If you're going to show blood on the screen, you're going to hope it looks real. And if it does look real, it's a little bit more of a challenge to find humor in it. Yeah, it can be a little bit more terrifying. Although, you know, I think this movie and like movies directed by Quentin Tarantino, they do seem to have a little bit more fun with their gratuitous violence. I can't quite.

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put my finger on how, maybe has to do with like the splatter or the sound effects or something, but they make it work. The challenge of doing that successfully with a character like the Punisher is that part of the appeal of the Punisher is that he's so grounded, you know, this is probably Marvel's most grounded character. So you can't get too cartoony and too funny with the violence. Ideally not, yeah. I mean, fortunately, I think we have a good example of how the character of the Punisher is best translated to the screen.

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And that was the Netflix series, which ditched the corniness and really focused on the emotional and psychological core of The Punisher, while still showcasing violent action. But with grounded cinematography, that made everything feel more real and believable. And that show still had fun elements as well. For sure. But there are definitely people out there who would say that they like Punisher: War Zone more than the Netflix Punisher, John Bernthal's character. I can kind of see where they're coming from, given that.

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Punisher: War Zone does do well what it tries its hardest to do, and that is to be fun. I'm just speaking from my own perspective as someone who prefers their superhero fare to be less cheesy. I think actually the most comparable DC film, tonally, is James Gunn's The Suicide Squad, which is the kind of movie I think director Lexi Alexander was going for here with that proper balance of like over the top violence and fun humor, but she lacked the performances, the story.

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budget probably. I think she lacked the character really. And that's what's great about the Suicide Squad characters is that there's such colorful characters, whereas the Punisher is almost like a robot. He's just so solemn and black and white really. I think actually you have a really good point there. It would be harder to pull off that tone of film with a character like the Punisher for sure. But you know, I guess to give Lexi Alexander some credit because I do think she really tried here, at the end of the day, I'll say it's better to be a fun film that misses the

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than to be an actually shit film, which I don't think Punisher: War Zone is. That's very true, yeah. But since we discussed Punisher's characterization, let's go ahead and get into the character breakdown, starting with the Punisher, AKA Frank Castle played by Ray Stevenson. I just wanna dedicate this portion to actor Ray Stevenson. I think it's really unfortunate that he passed. He also played another Marvel character, he played Volstagg in the Thor movies, and he was just a joy to watch. When he was first cast as the Punisher, I had no idea what to make of him.

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I guess I had seen him in the King Arthur movie and I heard that he was really awesome in the Spartacus television series, but he just didn't really feel like the character to me in the same way that like Thomas Jane did when he was first cast. And he kind of took me by surprise with his performance in this film. I'll say that he has the best performance in this film. Everybody else kind of sucks, unfortunately. But Ray Stevenson, I think took the movie more seriously than anybody else and really brought...

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a quality version of the Punisher to fans. I remember when I first saw him as the character, I think was for like the first teaser trailer or something like that. I thought he looked great. And it kind of felt like it was Tim Bradstreet's version of the Punisher. Yeah, you know, he's a popular cover artist for the Punisher comics. Yeah, it was like that version brought to life. Pretty much. Yeah. With like the slicked back hair and the way they always lit Ray Stevenson with darkened out eye sockets and stuff like that. Right.

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Ray Stevenson's version of the Punisher was much less humanized than, say, Thomas Jane's version, but in that regard, he also felt like much more of a force of nature. Yeah. To Jon Bernthal's credit, I actually think that he feels like both. Jon Bernthal is simultaneously more humanized than Thomas Jane, but also feels like more of a force of nature, I think, than Ray Stevenson. Well, Ray Stevenson's version of the Punisher actually had more human qualities to him than I remember, like the scene where he's talking with the little girl and showing her, like, the chest full of

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artifacts from his family. Yeah, I had forgotten about moments like that. And it just really went to show the quality of actor that Ray Stevenson is in that he can pull off like this very like lethal robotic assassin type character that the Punisher is, while also conveying in some scenes that, hey, he still has feelings. Yeah, I mean, like those scenes that kind of tried to delve into psychology were far and few between like I could count them on one hand. I do think that the script

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did Ray Stevenson a little dirty in that the actor could have gone further with the character, for sure. Yeah, that's true. I would have preferred it if less time was dedicated to Jigsaw and more time dedicated to Ray Stevenson. Absolutely, yeah. Same thing with the secondary protagonist in the film, Paul Budiansky. You know, I think too much time was spent with him that could have been spent on developing the character of Frank Castle. What did you think of the Punisher suit in this movie?

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I prefer like the trench coat punisher personally. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of like him decked out and like full military gear with like, you know, even like the neck brace. I don't know what that is. Think, yeah, protect his neck, whatever. It's very practical. It's probably the most practical superhero outfit ever. But I just I like the silhouette, I think, of the trench coat. Yeah, I don't mind the heavily body armored version of Frank Castle because I do think it's very practical and.

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Frank Castle gets shot all the time, so I think it's the best way for him to actually survive out there doing his vigilante thing. I really like the graphic depiction of the Punisher's skull that they had for this film, but it was also a little bit too subtle on his suit. It should have stood out a little bit more, I think. Because at times you could barely even see the skull. You know, it looked like he was just wearing all black. R.A.P. Ray Stevenson, we will miss your performances. I think you did a great job in all your Marvel roles. Let's go ahead and move on to...

32:09
the character of Jigsaw, aka Billy Rosati, who's played by Dominic West. Man, Dominic West really approached his character like it was the Joker or something, right? It was very hammy. Oh, so over the top. One of the worst New York accents in all of cinematic history. I think this guy was a cartoon character, really. And what's a shame is that Dominic West is a fantastic actor, you know? You think about his work on The Wire, and it's really kind of a shame.

32:37
what happened to him here. I really kind of blame Lexi Alexander for this because I don't think she does a great job of directing actors. I think she has a good handle on what makes a compelling action scene. Given that she has, you know, an action-oriented background, Lexi Alexander is like a champion karate fighter, but her background is not really in acting. And I think that shows with a lot of these performances. Yeah, I think you could also say that he was a victim of the script. I'm not sure who wrote this film, but...

33:04
It was the same writers who wrote Iron Man. What, really? Actually, and the other writer wrote the Sopranos television series. So we have some like acclaimed quality writers here. But it also makes me think that a larger part of Iron Man than I previously thought was ad libbed by Robert Downey Jr. You know, or it means that Dominic West did a lot of improv work for this film. It's possible. I mean, he seemed to be like having so much fun with the character. I wouldn't put it past him. Nor would I. All I know is as the film went on, I liked the character.

33:34
less and less. And I didn't like the character at the beginning. So really Jigsaw is a great Punisher villain, but they didn't do a good job of adapting him here. Yeah, if you want to know how awesome Jigsaw is, listen to our Two-Face versus Jigsaw duel episode. But yeah, he was kind of done dirty here. What did you think of the makeup for Dominic West Jigsaw? It was terrifying. Terrifying, but also suck ass. I don't think it was that bad. I mean, if someone's face was messed up, I don't think they would look too different.

34:02
from that. Yes they would. They would definitely look more like the Billy Russo Jigsaw character from the Punisher Netflix series, I think. I mean, if you went through like a glass recycling, I don't know what that thing was. Yeah. I don't know. I think your face would be pretty messed up. It would be. You would also not be alive. They also said in the film though, that like he went to some like free clinic initially. So. Right. I understand why it looks like shit. I just don't think he would be able to survive with that type of face, honestly.

34:32
Like it would get so infected and then he would die. Yeah, that's true. The rest of the characters are really just minor in terms of like not just the screen time, but also the depth of the character. So we'll probably blast through the rest of the character breakdown, beginning with Looney Bin Jim, AKA James Rosati, who was played by Doug Hutchinson. When they cast Doug Hutchinson in this role, I was actually really excited when I saw that announcement because I recognize him from the green mile.

34:58
He was a huge asshole and he just has a serial killer look to him that I totally buy as a Punisher villain. That being said, he had an even worse accent than Dominic West. And man, the worst lines I think out of any comic book movie ever and his delivery was just not there. Did you know that kidneys and applesauce is a delicacy in Sweden? It's like, motherfucker who?

35:25
Nobody's talking about Sweden like where did that come from like the me no sense? I understand that the character is crazy, but um he's also a shitty character. It's too crazy for this film I would say I mean Dominic West hampered up enough You know you didn't need two villains being freaking weird the whole time Yeah, you know I would have preferred it if this character wasn't in the film at all He was the least believable character in the film I would say at no point did I believe like loony bin Jim like biting the Punisher

35:55
and like armored parts of his body would have like done that much damage to him. Yeah. And just like really this guy going up against the fucking Punisher, who's like stacked with guns and knives and stuff like that. No. Yeah. He'd get his ass beat for sure. Let's go to move on to Microchip, aka David Lieberman, who is played by Wayne Knight. I loved Wayne Knight in this role. I know primarily I think most people know Wayne Knight as Newman from the Seinfeld series. Right.

36:23
It was so cool to see him as a completely different character, kind of a badass, you know, arms dealer, right? As Micro, it just kind of like about a whole level of respect to Wayne Knight to see him in this role. Yeah, I have nothing bad to say about it. I thought he was great. It was tragic what happened to him at the end and what happened to his mom. That was so messed up. Yeah. But like his character kind of meant something through that sacrifice. I think it was quite heroic, actually. Yeah. It was a vastly different version of Micro than the version we got.

36:52
in the Netflix series. I kind of prefer Wayne Knight's version of Micro though. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking that as I was watching the Netflix version, I was like, yeah, I preferred Wayne Knight in the role. Moving on to other minor characters, we have Angela Dinatelli played by Julie Benz. At the time, I knew Julie Benz from the Dexter television series. She was also in the Boondock Saints sequel. She kind of had this reputation at the time of being in these really dark, gritty movies and kind of being like a dark leading lady.

37:20
Again, horrible accent though. None of the actors I think had ever heard a New York accent prior to starting in this movie. I feel bad cause you could see on screen that she was really trying to work with what she was given with the script. It just wasn't well written. Right, right. She's great in other projects. Like she was great in Dexter. That was fucked up what happened in Dexter. I don't wanna talk about it because it makes me upset. Let's go to move on to Paul Budiansky played by Colin Salmon.

37:46
Colin Samman is kind of like the badass side character in a lot of genre films. Like this one, he was kind of like a Punisher Light, which is what he was in the comics. He was a cop who kind of wrestled with his own tendencies towards vigilantism. But this actor was also in Alien vs. Predator. I remember him there. Oh yeah. And he was also in Resident Evil, the first Resident Evil movie, where he had that iconic death with the laser grid. Oh, yeah. That was crazy.

38:12
Just a great character actor who you see pop up from time to time as a badass. It was cool to see him in this. But again, I mentioned earlier, I think he got too much screen time. I don't think we necessarily needed that type of audience surrogate within this film. I would much rather prefer to spend more time developing the character of Frank Castle, because Frank was largely one note in this movie. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was kind of nice to have an element of like the police going after Frank Castle and he was that stand in. So I think the character was necessary.

38:42
I just don't think the amount of screen time he got was necessary. Agreed. Yeah. The other member of the Punisher task force was Martin Soap, played by Dash Mihawk. I think that's how you pronounce it. I loved Detective Soap from the comics. He was like this tragically down on his luck character in the movie. He's a little bit more dopey, but it was a lot of fun. I think his interactions between not only Budiansky, but also the Punisher. I think Dash Mihawk brought a great comedic element to the film. I actually wish we had more screen time with him.

39:12
Yeah, I would have liked more soap slash punisher screen time. Yeah, totally. Those two together, they actually kind of make a funny odd couple. They're foils for each other. Yeah. But I think that does it for the character highlights. So let's go ahead and get into our story breakdown.

39:32
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41:28
The movie starts off with Frank Castle the Punisher as he infiltrates the mansion of mob boss Don Gaetano Cesare and murders nearly the entire crime family. Only Cesare's nephew, the vain Billy Rosati, and his men escape the Punisher's rampage. The Punisher tracks Rosati to his hideout and drops him into a glass recycling machine that eviscerates his face. During the shootout, Punisher accidentally kills undercover FBI agent Nikki Donatelli, who is serving as one of Rosati's men.

41:58
with the action scene that opens the movie, I remember thinking, oh, this is much different than the 2004 Punisher. Like I was so fucking pumped to see Punisher take on everyone at the dinner table after lighting that flare. And just like slicing heads off, snapping necks, shooting faces. Spinning from the chandelier. No, I didn't, no, I hated that part. Like all my excitement just like went out the window when he was hanging upside down.

42:21
from the chandelier. I thought that was a great shot, very cinematic. Sure, shot-wise, it looks cool, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. When I saw that, I was like, what kind of lame-ass, goofy, John Woo action movie move is that? Like, the Punisher would not do that. But then he got off the chandelier and then rammed a chair leg through a guy's eye socket and I was back on board. I was like, hell yeah, this is awesome again. But the movie is kind of a roller coaster like that, going from badass to cheesy and then back again.

42:48
I think the opening scene definitely set the tone for the film in terms of like the level of violence and everything like that. You can definitely see how Lexi Alexander was inspired by Paul Verhoeven or James Cameron in terms of like her action style and the use of violence. What James Cameron movie? I'm thinking like The Terminator, like his early movies. Oh, yeah, yeah. I would definitely say that Ray Stephenson's Punisher kind of felt like the Terminator in this movie when it came to his approach to gunning down bad guys. And in terms of like Paul Verhoeven, I'm thinking of like.

43:17
RoboCop, Total Recall, you know, stuff like that. I had totally forgotten the premise of this film, but how, you know, the Punisher really struggles with the fact that he kills an FBI agent. I thought that was an intriguing premise for a Punisher film. It is. It's happened a couple of times in the comics, and he always really struggles with it. And, you know, they had a great line in this movie when Angela asks him who punishes the Punisher, you know, great approach to the story that I don't know if they quite paid off, honestly.

43:44
Back to the story, Agent Paul Budianski promises to Donatelli's widow Angela and daughter Grace that he will avenge Nicky, who was his former partner. He joins the Punisher Task Force led by NYPD Detective Martin Soap. The Punisher distraught over his mistake, considers retirement, and tries to pay reparations to Angela and Grace, who refuse the money. Meanwhile, Ruzzotti gets facial reconstruction surgery that fails to repair the damage and leaves him with a disfigured, stitched up face.

44:13
Ruzadi insists on going by the name Jigsaw. I do have to say that I felt like Jigsaw's henchmen were all miscast. Really? Yeah, like they were not believable as like mob gangsters to me really at all. I think Pitsy seemed like a mobster. I guess, but he was always like angry at his kid, at his son, you know? Yeah, well his kid was a fuck up. So why is your kid there then?

44:37
Because nepotism, man, nepotism is a huge part of Italian mafia crime families, obviously. Okay. Jigsaw breaks his brother, Looney Bin Jim, out of an insane asylum as they plot to get revenge on the Punisher. Jigsaw and the crew meet with Kristu Bulat, a Russian mobster who is selling a biological weapon and needs to smuggle it through New York City's shipping docks.

45:00
The Punisher's weapon supplier Microchip convinces him to put off retirement at least long enough to protect the Donatelli family from Jigsaw. With the help of his associate Carlos, the Punisher gets a lead on Jigsaw from some of his henchmen, McGinty and his urban free flow gang, who warn that Jigsaw is headed to the Donatelli house. This scene actually has my favorite moment in the entire movie where McGinty and his gang are doing parkour across the rooftops of New York City and as one of the guys is

45:30
He gets shot with a fucking rocket launcher just out of the blue. Like, like the music comes to a screeching halt. You see this guy's limbs like just fly everywhere. It's it's so fucking ridiculous, but so damn funny. Like I laugh my ass off every time I see it. It's like, oh, my God. Those parkour guys were such characters.

45:50
They felt like right out of a Garth Annis comic. I felt like. Absolutely. Yeah. McGinty is from the Garth Annis books. OK. That makes sense why they, you know, had Irish accents then. Yeah. He's Jamaican Irish, I believe, if I remember correctly. On a constant meth high, apparently. Apparently. Remember, kids, meth, not even once. Not even once. Right. Yeah. That's new slogan of this podcast. In these scenes, we see Carlos for the first time. And I don't know what the heck. You know, I mentioned that the accents are all over the place, but

46:19
This guy's accent seemed like it was 80 yard in. It was so off and I don't even know what it was trying to be. It was just so bad. Before Punisher can get to the Donatelli house, he's apprehended by Budianski and Soap. Concerned for Angela and Grace, they visit the Donatelli home where Jigsaw's holding the family hostage. Budianski's rescue attempt is thwarted, but Detective Soap frees the Punisher from custody and he rescues them all, escaping the scene with Angela and Grace and leaving Jigsaw and Looney Bin Jim

46:49
to be apprehended. Second favorite moment in this movie is when Punisher shoots Pitsky point blank in the face without even blinking and Budiansky is like, damn it, Kessel. It's so good. Yeah, it was pretty crazy. I did appreciate how like he held Grace on his shoulder so she couldn't see what he was about to do, but then he fucking turns around right for her to see the guy's blasted face off. I was like, oh, I feel bad for Grace. Well.

47:17
Every kid needs to grow up sometime. Jeez. Back to the movie, Jigsaw uses his deal with Chris Dubula as leverage with the FBI to strike a deal for complete immunity. He and his brother kidnap Microchip and later Angela and Grace who are in hiding at the Punisher's underground lair. They leave Punisher a note to meet them at the Bradstreet Hotel in exchange for their hostages. As Jigsaw and his brother recruit an army of gangsters to defend the hotel,

47:45
Punisher allies himself with Budiansky and Soap to secure the exchange. Within these scenes we have the church scene, which I thought was glorious cinematography-wise. It's the only time that I think this atmospheric, colorful style of visuals actually really worked. Especially with the lighting effect with the candles, which is called Bokeh. Yeah, so good.

48:09
Yeah, this scene is actually my favorite scene in the movie. Yeah, you know, it's the film is a dark comedy, but I think this scene right here has the movie's most profound moment when you learn that Castle used to be in seminary. Yeah. And his priest friend is explaining essentially how like, hey, Frank, like you're going to be judged so much harsher than how you're judging people in the end. You're essentially going to hell for what you're doing. And the punishers response is essentially like, I'm OK with that. Yeah, you know.

48:37
It's pretty hardcore. Yeah, that scene made me understand the Punisher in a way that I really hadn't before. I think even reading the comics, really, it really makes them come across as almost like a martyr, as almost like a savior figure. He's sacrificing his own soul to save other people's. Yeah, it is interesting. Like, and also you have moments like one of the previous scenes where he tells Angela at her doorstep to shoot him, to squeeze, don't pull the trigger because he thinks, you know, maybe he should die for.

49:07
killing one of the good guys. There are some iterations of the Punisher in the books that kind of depict him as being on a suicide mission. Yeah, he's just trying to be with his family, but he's just so damn good at what he does and so unbelievably hard to kill. It just hasn't happened yet. Right, right, right. And that's great. Like it really showed that the Punisher is not a hypocrite. He's willing to accept the consequences of what he did. It was during the church scene though that I really came to realize like, this is a better movie than the previous Punisher film.

49:35
because the character of the Punisher is so much more profound in this one. It was the scene that made me think that there is a better movie somewhere in here that they should have gone with. Yeah, absolutely. Budiansky convinces Christo Bulat's father to go to the Bradstreet Hotel to avenge his son's betrayal, and the shooting starts. Punisher infiltrates the building through a window and systematically takes out the gangsters level by level. Looney Ben Jim attacks the Punisher.

50:02
who pursues him back to Jigsaw and the hostages. In a sick game, they force Punisher to kill one of the hostages, either Micro or Grace. Instead, Punisher kills Looney Bin Jim, sacrificing Micro to save the Donatellis. Punisher savagely beats Jigsaw, impaling him with a spear, and dropping him in a fire pit. The action scene at the Bradstreet Hotel, I thought was pretty solid.

50:27
Some of it felt a little bit like Punisher was just like shooting in a random direction and then you switch to shots of bad guys falling over. But there were some shots that I thought were really well orchestrated where you got a good sense of the space in which the characters were working. Oh yeah, yeah for sure. I loved this scene. I loved it all up until Looney Bend Gym.

50:48
Yeah, the action scene ended with Punisher shooting the head off the guy who was smoking pot in the elevator. But then Looney Ben Jim comes out of nowhere and all of a sudden, like he's this expert martial artist when he's doing things like striking with surgical precision so as to make Frank Castle sterile and Teres Maniscus and like make him see double and things like that. That was pretty cool, but I don't think it was quite sold. It just seemed like Looney Ben Jim was just ranting as opposed to actually doing the things that he was doing because Punisher got right up and just beat the shit out of him.

51:17
You know, yeah. My biggest gripe with this movie though, is how the two villains gave up their advantage against Frank Castle in the final hostage standoff. You know, they got Punisher to give up his gun, and they both had guns, and they both had hostages. They had such a huge advantage, and they decided to throw all that shit away by playing a fucking game.

51:43
They really should have just started shooting at the Punisher at that point, but instead they decided to give the Punisher back his gun with one shot left, try to convince him to take out one of the hostages. They should have saw what was coming because really Punisher using that bullet to take out one of them was his only option. He had literally no other option. And why would he have saved Micro over the little girl? I know they're bad guys, but it was clear as day. As an audience member.

52:08
It was not a surprise at all what was going to happen. No, you could tell neither Looney bin Jim nor Jigsaw had ever heard the term game theory before because yeah, because Punisher only had one option. And he evened the playing field real quick and beat the everloving shit out of Jigsaw. It was satisfying to see Jigsaw get his ass beat because it was it was brutal. And seeing a bad guy get his comeuppance like that was what we had been waiting to see. I don't know if I love the line though, where he was like, let me put you out of my misery. Yeah, that was dumb.

52:37
As Punisher leaves the scene, Angela admits to him that her late husband, Nicky, thought he was a hero. I do like the fact that Angela explained to Frank that her husband thought he was a hero. And it really put the rest of the film in perspective as to why Grace took such a liking to the Punisher, even though he killed her dad, was because she believed her dad, and she probably heard him say that the Punisher was a hero. So she felt that he was someone that could protect her.

53:03
Yeah, and it did a good job explaining why the Punisher would return to his role kind of with a renewed faith in the work that he was doing, as opposed to retiring, which is what he wanted to do earlier on in the film. The film ends with Punisher saving Detective Soap from an armed mugger. One of the best ending shots ever, I think, where you had the cross at the church that said Jesus saves, and then the word Jesus kind of like flickers out in the neon lighting and then like the Punisher's skull chest emblem lights up a little bit. So it was like

53:33
Punisher saves. I thought that was kind of an artistic way to end things. I appreciated that. I love how the last line of the film was like, oh great, now I got brain splattered all over me. But that brings us to the end of the film. You know, there's a lot to not like about this movie, but there's also so much to enjoy. It's really a mixed bag is what it is. Despite that, I think it's kind of a hard sell to recommend to other people. I think you really have to know the type of person you're recommending this movie to.

54:02
before you do it. Someone who enjoys over the top violence and really dark humor, I think, would love this film. And literally anybody else, I think, would think it's pretty crappy. Well, even then, like I would recommend movies, you know, like Pulp Fiction or anything Quentin Tarantino to almost anybody. I would not recommend this film to almost anybody in that same vein. I think the quality of it is pretty far removed from the types of films that it's inspired by. Yeah, absolutely.

54:30
As far as my rating goes, you know, overall the film adapts the fun, violence and dark humor of the comics, but neglects the nuance, making it more of a guilty pleasure than a satisfying movie experience. I'm giving it two and a half stars out of five, a rotten rating on Rotten Tomatoes, which seems harsh, but I think it all goes back to whether or not as a critic I recommend the movie. Yeah, I agree with that rating. The only type of person I would recommend this film to would be someone who was familiar

55:00
with the Garth Ennis Punisher comics. And then, you know, I figure if they are, they probably have already seen this film. So there's really no need to recommend it. You should note though, that we gave the 2004 Thomas Jane movie two stars. So I do like Punisher: War Zone more than the 2004 film, but the movie doesn't score high as, you know, the Punisher Netflix seasons, which I think to this day is still the best interpretation of Frank Castle in live action. Absolutely, yeah, for sure.

55:27
But that does it for this review, let us know what you guys thought about the movie by writing to us at dynamicduelpodcast.gmail.com or by visiting us on Instagram or Twitter. You can find links to all of our accounts by checking out our show notes or visiting our website dynamicduel.com. And on our site you can also find a link to our Patreon page where you can join our dynamic 2-0 tier and chat with us and fellow listeners, our fantastic 4 tier, which gets you bonus content each month.

55:54
our ex-Force tier that makes you an executive producer of this podcast, or our newest tier that lets you join our Dynamike podcast network. If you can't join Patreon, you can still support the show by signing up for our e-newsletter also at dynamicduel.com. Or you could also support us by rating us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podchaser, or on our website. If you enjoy Dynamic Duel, be sure to let us know.

56:21
And if you enjoy Dynamic Duel, also check out the Max Destruction Podcast, which uses a similar mathematical means to find out who'd win between fictional characters. And they're going to start doing movie reviews soon. Yeah, look forward to that. Absolutely. They're going to be reviewing all the films that we don't get to review that I wish we could. Next week's episode, we're going to do a duel. Basically, this was a executive producer request in that we find out who'd win in a fight between the Green Lantern mogo.

56:49
which is a planet versus Ego, who was the villain of Guardians of the Galaxy volume two. He is also a planet. So we're putting two planets against each other. I have no idea how the hell the speculation is going to go. But you know what? We're going to have fun doing it. And hopefully you guys will have fun too. But that does it for this episode. We want to give a big thanks to our executive producers, Ken Johnson, John Swarovski, Zachary Hepburn, Dustin Balcom, Mickey Math and Gian.

57:15
Brandon Eschegard, Nathaniel Wagner, Levi Yatin, Nick Abonto, Austin Wyselowski, AJ Dunkerley, Scott Camacho, and Adam Spies for helping make this podcast possible. And we'll talk to you guys next week. Up up and away, true believers. I'm gonna get my apple sauce back.